DISCUSSION: Core-only Wizard20 vs a Splatbook-Enabled Fighter20 - Lycan's Duel

[Halinn]

Celerity.

Contingency. Admittedly, splatwiz could have a crafted contingency against that, but that means fewer contingencies overall. Even with splatwiz's guaranteed first action (which pretty much was a given anyhow, given the amount of initiative boosters outside of core), a significant amount of defensive measures against possible actions do exist in core, especially with clerical aid.

[awaken_D_M_golem]

(not defending the Fighter but ...)

The tactics and preliminaries of the Core Wiz 20 + Cohort 17
are very different than the Splat Wiz 18 + Fighter 20  tactics.
It would make for an interesting fight.

Limited Wish and Wish can create effects, that are known
because the non-core material is being used.
It gives access to the splats, if not full bore.

Perhaps to be fair , the Splats should actually be (Splat minus Core).
No core material for the Splats outside of the basics.
Then there's the argument about what that would mean ...

[snakeman830]

(not defending the Fighter but ...)

The tactics and preliminaries of the Core Wiz 20 + Cohort 17
are very different than the Splat Wiz 18 + Fighter 20  tactics.
It would make for an interesting fight.

Limited Wish and Wish can create effects, that are known
because the non-core material is being used.
It gives access to the splats, if not full bore.

Perhaps to be fair , the Splats should actually be (Splat minus Core).
No core material for the Splats outside of the basics.
Then there's the argument about what that would mean ...

I would imagine the class itself and skills would remain, but feats and spells are right out. Mundane equipment I would leave available for everyone.

[SorO_Lost]

I'd just like to note. What an epic f*cking pain in the ass.
This topic (discussion): Here
This topic (real thread): Here
Old results post: Here
The only thread with links on builds: Here
The none-existent build: Here
These should have been a mandatory part of ALL those posts instead of making me load one after another like some lame porn cycle. Now that I'm in a foul mood...

**

And no. It's perfectly valid to double (or more!) your WBL through crafting if you've got the feats and the spells and you're willing to expend the time, gp, and xp.

Now that I think about it, most of the feats I took were crafting feats, and I had a ton of rods of absorption and metamagic rods for that specific reason.

You reference being lv20 have a 10th-level Simulacrum and those are made at 1/2 you're level. You didn't expend XP.
You had more Wealth than you should have had. You didn't expend gold.
You had infinite time as you skipped everything up to the fight. You didn't expend time.
&
A. Anyone can use an ounce of gold to craft two ounces under the rules of the game, therefore anyone can break WBL.
B. And WBL doesn't care if you can find a way to break it, this is the value your DM is trying to keep you at.

I think one of my lasts posts in here mentioned the Wizard cheating by never actually showing up to the fight and not being "ringed out" and now I learned his creator cheated extra gold in based on his opinion and unagreed upon houserules he added. It's like the more I read this thread, the better it becomes at explaining why Fighter vs Wizard threads are never ending. ...Oh look, people want to start another one already. It's working.

[awaken_D_M_golem]

hmm ... an explicit Accounting of every EXP could change things some.

Let's say:
4 PCs of level 19 , 1 Crafter of level 18 + gear
"exp is a river" improves the Crafter by about 1/3rd of a level
4 PCs of mid level 19 , 1 Crafter of level 19 + same gear
Crafter decides to not bother catching up exp and crafts instead
4 PCs of level 20 , 1 Crafter of level 19 + more gear

It wouldn't be that hard to just say any crafting requires 1 ditched level.
Unless all or most of the crafting takes place before level 15
... that gives enough time to catch up on the exp, by level 20.

[Lycanthromancer]

You reference being lv20 have a 10th-level Simulacrum and those are made at 1/2 you're level. You didn't expend XP.

Ahem.

2.) Each of us takes a 20th-level base-class all the way to 20 (with 200,000 xp), +0 LA races only - unless the race is obviously underpowered for a +1 LA, such as a Blue (we would have to agree on it, however - and we can use any age category), no PrCs, substitution levels, or alternate base-classes. Outside of the core 3, only feats and items allowed. Full 20th-level starting wealth.

I had 10,000 xp to play around with and still be 20th level.

I DID post links to all the relevant information at the time, but it's not like I expected there to be a discussion several years later that would require me to actually account for all that stuff.

[SorO_Lost]

Ahem.
<snip>
I DID post links to all the relevant information at the time, but it's not like I expected there to be a discussion several years later that would require me to actually account for all that stuff.

I know you posted the sheet, I found the thread like five links in. WotC's boards take forever to load for some reason and it's was annoying to have to go through several of them just to find out one website in the five long pile of requotes chain already broke things when simply quoting the original is all that would have been needed.

**

As far as your XP point out. What did I just say in my last post? You still didn't pay time/gold, glossed over Craft thinking only you exclusively can make money, ignored WBL rules, and yet that still wasn't enough. You want to draw attention to needed things that were set up so you can ignore costly components and such as if they weren't put in there as some kind of balance factor to begin with.

Unagreeable win conditions is what keeps these types of threads alive. And this isn't even some that's "cheating to me" thing, like the empty void you fought in which btw has been enough to incite pages of hate, you flat out broke WBL and your excuse for doing so doesn't even apply to the scenario your used it in. If you actually want to beat a Fighter, you have to do so in a way that's accepted. Like picture arguing with a friend which is the all around gun in your favorite FPS, but when you ask them to prove why theirs it better they respond by using an auto aim hack to repeatedly kill you instantly. Would you really agree with him?

[awaken_D_M_golem]

Well ... wouldn't most of the Gear have been made
sometime earlier, like say levels 3 through 18 or 19?

[SorO_Lost]

Well ... wouldn't most of the Gear have been made
sometime earlier, like say levels 3 through 18 or 19?

Pointed that out last post.

And no. It's perfectly valid to double (or more!) your WBL through crafting if you've got the feats and the spells and you're willing to expend the time, gp, and xp.

You reference being lv20 have a 10th-level Simulacrum and those are made at 1/2 you're level. You didn't expend XP.
You had more Wealth than you should have had. You didn't expend gold.
You had infinite time as you skipped everything up to the fight. You didn't expend time.

He corrected the XP part by pointing out yet another grossly in favor of the Wizard rule but at least it's preestablished.

WBL isn't just something pulled out of the author's ass, it's a limitation for balance of wealth for each level and directly controlled by a DM. It's as much part of your level limits as say normally having one feat at level 1 opposed to picking fifteen of them. And even WBL aside, their match rules state 20th level starting wealth, not and two years of trying to break the economy.

What makes this stand apart from the rest of the omfgs is Ly's reasoning for it. Like "and spells" means you get to ignore rules and it's totally valid if you paid using these three different things. Except he didn't and I hit my limit for his favoristism reek when he posted that.

[Lycanthromancer]

If the fighter was capable of crafting magic items he would have been more than welcome to do so.

And if you can't figure out why that's relevant to the subject on relative class power, I don't know what to say.

[awaken_D_M_golem]

hmm ... I wonder what reasonable Crafting for the Fighter would look like ?

Let's say the Fighter is in a party with a Rogue,
and Caster Crafters for Divine, Arcane, and Psionic.
No Artificers for simplicities sake.

Magic Mart is not available, but selling useless magic items for 1/2 price is available.
Party gets normal WBL but the Items are absolutely random.
So the real WBL trails normal by some calculatable amount.

From levels 1 to 5 not much happens.
From levels 6 to 10 Fighter has below normal WBL
... and begs his boys/dawgs to craft him stuff.
I'd wanna see the exact accounting, even though it affects the high level stuff not much.

From levels 11 to 15 it's about the same, but his boys will
make him stuff if he pays for everything and treats any spellcasting as a Service.
The extra cost isn't much, it's more a matter of what the Crafters can do.

From levels 16+ the party casters have figured out they rule the world,
and they might as well throw a bone or two to their dawgFighter.
Heck, they've got the down time, what with Genesis and Far Realms and stuff.
So they make stuff like a near full on magic mart and have access to
Bauglir/PLZ's reducing item costs handbook , using most of it.
I'd wanna see as exact as possible accounting, if that all is happening.

Now I don't know / don't wanna guess, what the ratio would be
between the core Wiz's gear and the splat Fighter's gear.
But it's still above 2 to 1 most of the way up.
And the Wiz can have Candles.
 

[Cyclone Joker]

Splat fighter vs. Core Wizard isn't fair in the slightest. The Fighter should beat the wizard like a drunkard on a red-headed stepchild.

Human Zhentarim Hit-and-Run Fighter

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(H)Magical Training(Wizard casting)
(T)Eldritch Corruption
(F)Heighten
(F)Sanctum Spell
(1)Earth sense
(3)Earth Spell
(6)Practiced Spellcaster
(9)Extra Slot(Level 3)
(12)Extra Slot(Level 6)
(15)Extra Slot(Level 9)
(18)Extra Slot(Level 12, I guess?)
Fighter feats are Improved Initiative, Martial Study(Leading the Attack), Martial Study(White Raven Tactics), and I don't know what else. Not that it really matters.

Trait is going to be Spellgifted(Transmutation)

WBL:

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760,000, which can be spent on: Ioun Stone(Orange Prism)(30K), Karma Bead(20K), Robe of Arcane Might(Transmutation)(21K), Ring of Arcane Might(20K), Domain Draught(1)(3.3K), Greater Rod of Maximize (121.5K), Cowl of Warding(208K), relocate gloves of Third Eye Clarity(4.5K), Cloak of Resistance +5(25K), and we still have over 200K to throw around, by my calculations.

Oh, and a spellbook with Shapechange, Time Stop, Suffer the Flesh, Celerity, Mage Hand, Prestidigitation, and some other Cantrip.

Dead wizard. Seriously, splats+garbage>>>>>Core+God

[awaken_D_M_golem]

 

Splat Casting >> Core Casting ... of course.

Making the Fighter to be the Caster = Interesting.

[Cyclone Joker]

Splat Casting >> Core Casting ... of course.

Making the Fighter to be the Caster = Interesting.

Seemed the easiest way to give the fighter the edge, given the rules. with access to splats, the fighzard(I need a better portmanteau than that) has access to the Zodar, so Shapechange means wish means basically every spell you would probably need(I'm looking at Pact of Return mostly), and can let you set up a simularum farm immediately, with either a Mirror Mephit or Efreet looping. The biggest problem with this is initiative, but a Hat of Disguise added onto the Cowl would make it not obvious that you were a zodar, so if the wizard tried to damage you to death, you'd have a turn or two

Actually... If I could somehow gain a level(Deck of many things abuse or some such, though it would need a couple days prep), I could actually make a fighter with epic spells... 

[Halinn]

In a battle of Wish looping, core has enough tricks to compete. The challenge was, as I recall the original thread, also to have a fighter beating a wizard while remaining a fighter. In a caster vs. caster battle, splatbook caster has some advantage.

[Cyclone Joker]

In a battle of Wish looping, core has enough tricks to compete. The challenge was, as I recall the original thread, also to have a fighter beating a wizard while remaining a fighter. In a caster vs. caster battle, splatbook caster has some advantage.

I don't see that in the rules, though I did notice that I can't use Zhentarim or Hit-and-Run. Meh, doesn't matter.

If I had more buff-time, there wouldn't even be close to a contest.

By the way, how did he Extend Time Stop? I was under the impression that it could only be done on things without a variable time.

[Halinn]

It wasn't in the rules, but it was implied in the challenge, and how Lycanthromancer's opponent in the duel went about building his character.
For that matter, there's nothing explicit in the rules about the fighter not taking leadership, undead leadership, dragon cohort and such and show up with a bunch of level 17 splatbook wizards. The challenge was never about whether or not casters got better with more books.

[Cyclone Joker]

It wasn't in the rules, but it was implied in the challenge, and how Lycanthromancer's opponent in the duel went about building his character.
For that matter, there's nothing explicit in the rules about the fighter not taking leadership, undead leadership, dragon cohort and such and show up with a bunch of level 17 splatbook wizards. The challenge was never about whether or not casters got better with more books.

That would be using a wizard, not a monoclassed fighter. I used a monoclassed fighter all the way to twenty.

And it's hardly my fault Lycan's opponent wasn't able to see the most obvious advantage of splats. I used a non-caster, and, by use of splats, I made it better, and able to crush Lycan's wizard. That seemed to be the point of the character. I mean, if Lycan wanted no casting, he would have said "No casting, knock yourself out with a warrior-type." He didn't. He was very clear on fighter. I used fighter, made a fighter than can crush any fighter that he runs into, as well as the wizard. I don't see what's wrong here.

[snakeman830]

By the way, how did he Extend Time Stop? I was under the impression that it could only be done on things without a variable time.

It's been a debated point over whether or not Time Stop can be Extended (and Persisted), Empowered (and Maximized), or both.  Extend never states anything about requiring a fixed duration.  Regardless, one or both can definitely be used.

That said, WotC has stated that it can't be Extended because it's effectively an instantaneous duration (yeah, this was FAQ, why do you ask?).

[Sir Giacomo]

Well, I’m back…
I had already discovered this thread in the handbook/handbook discussion section a while ago, but did not have enough time to comment on it to the necessary extent. Granted, doing it now is a bit of a thread necromancy, but maybe I can add some more perspectives to this duel.
Note to mods: I have seen in the reply function that usually after 120 days of not posting in a thread, a new thread should be considered. However, this is the handbook discussion section, and I hesitate to start a second discussion thread on this issue. In case this is a problem, this post (and any answers to it) could be moved to form a new discussion thread in the handbook section). Thanks.
Now on, to my remarks:
Basically, the main points Endarire brought up with this wizard vs fighter duel – and supported by the majority of posters here - are that such a duel can show two things:

• How much more powerful a wizard is than a fighter,
• And that this already happens with just the core rules, illustrating how broken the core rules are.

I disagree that the duel is proof for this.

Those who know my earlier posts of course may not be much surprised. However, maybe the reasons why I see such a duel not upholding any of the above two assertions are – at least in part – new.
I’ll go through Lycanthromancer’s duel description step by step and will point out areas where I think the rules were interpreted wrongly, plus general remarks/other observations (e.g. on tactical oddities that I perceive).
This fresh perspective on the duel is also needed imo since this duel, ever since it first appeared on the WotC boards, is often used as the standard benchmark for the two assertions above and is quoted so often with little or even without any questioning in the typical fighter vs wizard debates (like in this thread….).

Pre-duel-preparation

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First of all, in my view Lycanthromancer’s wizard achieved the remarkable feat to lose this duel before it even began.

• One reason was already pointed out by SorO_Lost above: Lycanthromancer himself set the rules in such a way (rule 11 on losing: “transportation out of the plane”) that he limited a wizard’s many methods to leave the prime material plane. And since his wizard started astrally projected, plus his body was stashed away in a non-dimensional bag of holding, he clearly left said prime material plane (which was the plane they were fighting in for all purposes of the rules).
• Another reason for having lost before the duel even started is that putting the body from which the astral projection originates into a bag of holding could easily be interpreted by many DMs to mean severing the astral chord (which is incorporal as per DNG and thus cannot remain in connection between a non-dimensional space and another plane of existence). The moment the wizard did it to prepare for the duel, he died.

But these are really unforced errors on the side of Lyanthromancer and not really representative of a power match displayed by wizard and fighter.
More on pre-duel preparation (just some side notes actually, since they had no impact on the match, but might have had in a longer confrontation):

• The clone needs to be done just prior to the duel since it starts to decay immediately without the necessary magical preservation (or laboratory that does not fit into the bag and with its many sharp points would jeopardise the bag).
• The simulacrum – while it has 10HD – does not have any spellcasting ability, since only special abilities (not class abilities) of the original wizard are copied (the core rules are pretty clear on what constitutes a special ability. Spellcasting is not among those).

The buff round – wizard actions

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The gate spells should imo not have worked as intended. There are quite a few problems, actually:

• It is difficult to imagine how the core wizard would even know about such creatures. The DC for identifying a half-celestial great wyrm gold dragon is 51. Even a level 20 wizard with INT 34 and maxed ranks will have difficulty to know about them (and arguably he cannot take 20 on the knowledge roll). But let us assume a wizard able to boost in core his knowledge arcane skill to a 41 for safely identifying the dragons by taking 10 ahead of combat (I guess it should be possible).
• Secondly, and more importantly, the gate can only be max 20ft wide. Thus, the colossal (30ft space) dragons will not fit through. Both spells fail, and no golden dragons appear (and thus the only noteworthy offense of the wizard for the first rounds is no more since the fighter had a rod of absorption. And as an afterthought, the gate spell calls such CR 30 creatures “willing or unwilling”, so it is likely that at least one of the dragons will seek revenge/just punishment for the wizard afterwards, resulting in a likely death of the wizard.)
• Another problem is that while in time stop, the wizard cannot communicate with the dragons (or other creatures) that appear. So, they appear but have no task set for them when the time stop ends – arguably this mean they leave at that moment, making the gate spell redundant.
• A (potential) problem would be – depending on your interpretation of “invulnerable” in the time stop spell description – whether the calling function of gate could be used in a time stop at all.
• Finally, the spell does not at all mention that the wizard can give the called creature(s) continually orders of any kind – he can only command a 1 round/lvl service, but nothing more. Fighting for the wizard is one such service, but the exact way is open for the DM – likely the called creature(s) will buff first/check what powers the enemy has before attacking blindly. Certainly the called creatures are no slaves, and this becomes even clearer when comparing the wording of the gate spell with that of the monster summoning spells (where, for instance, the expression “to the best of its ability” is used).

Other issues of the buff round (that likely do not affect the duel as much as the gate spell, but would still in some cases make the wizard lose or weaken his power):

• The familiar, when fixing the ring gates on the heads of the 30ft space dragons, and giving them rings of spell storing, actually leaves the 5ft necessary distance from the caster for time stop to still affect it. Thus, the familiar will fail to equip the called dragons with items and is on its own from the buff round onwards (and possibly a target for the fighter?).
• Tossing the ring gates on the ground to look through only AFTER erecting a prismatic wall and wall of stone means that – even when during the time stop – line of effect was not maintained to the called creatures and thus they are no longer controlled. Might have been handled a bit differently, though, by holding them in the hand and looking at them all the time.
• The wall of iron can only be tipped intentionally with a DC 40 STR check. But it will randomly fall to where the wizard will be able to turtle, anyhow (without hitting one of the called creatures). I think.
• The limited wish emulating the contingency effect will imo not automatically bring along a dimension door (another spell that needs to be wished for or cast from memory separately). Also, it can be argued, that the casting time of the contingency (10 mins) still applies for combining it with the other spell, and not the casting time of the limited wish. I’m not sure here. Otherwise a nice idea to get a contingency spell up quickly in combat.
• Having said that, the condition for the contingency “go off any time my opponent was about to hit me with something that could actually affect me” is way too vague and thus will not work with many DMs. Or worse, it would work the moment the fighter does something that remotely has a chance to affect the wizard, but is extremely unlikely to happen. Anyway, the contingency spell is not an interpreter of anything (it is not sentient) and will only react to events that can be objectively described (“whenever something comes within 10ft of me” or “when I cast feather fall” etc.).
• Shapechanging into an incorporal creature like a greater shadow is probably not a good idea, since the wizard’s equipment is corporal and will thus meld into the new form as per alter self spell (on which shapechange is based) and becomes non-functional. This means, for instance, that the contingency no longer works, since the focus circlet will meld into the new form (more complicated would be what the non-functionality of the bag of holding with the original body entails when it merges with the incorporal body, considering the fate of the astral chord as discussed above). The ioun stone of +1 caster level is an exception as, while corporal, will still orbit the head of the shadow wizard. However, this will no longer be the case the moment it moves into the ground (where it cannot follow), such as when the contingency is triggered. That will mean the caster level is 20 again and thus the wizard will be unable to control 42 HD creatures. Ah, and line of effect will end, anyhow, since the ring gates are also corporal and can no longer be held by the incorporal wizard (or meld into his new form).

Some observations at this point:

• It is noteworthy that in general, one of the major disadvantages of the allegedly “broken” spell shapechange is that in most cases the equipment becomes non-functional with the most powerful forms. That is a quite a drawback at high levels when items from wbl constitue a large proportion of any character’s power.
• We can also conclude from the prep round that the wizard through various imo justifiable rules interpretations likely miscast the gate spell, completely neutering his only meaningful offense vs the fighter. Gate as an allegedly “broken” spell has many problems when actually used in practice – and at high-level play, a harsh DM may have/should have no problem at all to let the wizard player face the consequences of his casting mistakes. Sometimes great power necessitates great understanding of how things work!
• Most importantly, the actions of the prep round and even before can be easily interpreted in such a way that the wizard either died before combat started (astral body disconnected from original body) or lost due to the rules set (wizard having left the prime material plane as per astral projection spell), or cast gate and contingency in such a way to have likely lost control of the dragons (in case they had appeared at all, so insert other random high-HD core monster like two solars), also ending in his likely defeat without the fighter having to do more than just turtle, too (or doing nothing at all).

The buff round – fighter actions

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The fighter buff round (the original one) is a bit of a riddle for me.

• EITHER the wall of stone was directly behind the prismatic sphere, meaning then it would have been impossible for the fighter to get through the sphere – which is necessary for the sphere’s special effects to affect the fighter (the sphere is not triggered by touching it, but by passing through it as per spell description). So, no saves necessary and thus the fighter just bounces of the wall of stone, unable to pass the sphere. He would then just have needed to fight the called creature(s) next to the dome. Or withdraw to within the parameters allowed by the duel’s rules. Or do some defensive maneuver or whatever.
• OR the wall of stone was far enough behind the prismatic sphere for a creature to pass through. Then, of course the failed save would have meant the fighter loses (although it is strange apparently that no luck blade to grant a re-roll was on the fighter’s equipment list). In the reloaded scenario, however, the fighter would have been inside the sphere and in front of the wall of stone. The calle(d) creatures would not have been able to affect him anymore (prismatic sphere stops all effects going through), including the wizard (provided the ring gates trick would be legal somehow, see above). Meanwhile, the fighter would have been able to hack through the wall of stone (much better strategy than hacking … at the ground ?!!!).
• As an aside, charging needs line of sight. So the only thing the fighter could have done would have been to charge the prismatic wall (and thus not passing it), but not through it.
• Finally, quite a few in this threads and other threads discussing the duel, including those awed by the wizard’s alleged power, were quite disappointed about the fighter player’s use of a buff round that even allowed him to move close to the wizard.

Round one/take 2 – wizard actions

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Only minor nitpicks here:

• It is interesting that the dragons acted first once Lycanthromancer’s wizard had won initiative. The gate spell does not specify that the called creatures act on their caller’s turn (this usually gets pointed out by the rules in such cases), so it is likely they should even have acted after the fighter (being dragons with no DEX bonus and only receiving +2 to DEX from the template).
• The dual implosions are nice, but once again it needs to be mentioned that the dragons are not the slave of the calling wizard (as per dominate, or even summon monster spells), but they are played by the DM. They likely would not have attacked right away, but buffed their defenses first, or making somehow sure that the fighter would not get away or is not an illusion or whatever.
• Then, I am not quite sure how a 40ft burst of disjunction hitting the fighter could have avoided the gold dragons that are apparently assumed to be in melee distance (thus neutering at least one of their ring gates and ending the control of gate and any way of the wizard to affect the fighter). But that’s not really important, I guess.

So round one – wizard actions are quite OK (tellingly, not having much effect on the fighter).

Round one take 2 – fighter actions

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Attacking the ground with the first (and best) iterative attack and then using the rest on one of the dragons is an unworthy action to even consider for a level 20 character, and has already been commented on in this thread. But it is definitely legal . It may be noted that not one of the remaining attacks landing a hit on a likely AC 47 dragon is still a bit unlucky, but, similarly to previous minor oddities, that does not really matter.

Round two take 2 – wizard actions

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What matters more, though, are some of the following issues:

• How was the half-celestial great wyrm dragon at -10 power attacking even able to sunder the main weapon of the fighter? I mean, the rod probably was ruled to be mace-like (thus no improvised weapon?) and enchanted with an enhancement bonus of around +5. That would mean hardness 20 (30 with adamantine metal, common for the main weapon of a level 20 fighter) and 60 hit points (90+ with adamantine rod).
• Additionally, the action of the simulacrum is irrelevant since, as already outlined, it has no spellcasting ability.
• The way to win for Lycanthromancer with a maze is also quite lame, since it only became a win through (his) setting or the rules, making a maze spell way more powerful than is intended by the core rules. It could be ruled even that being sent to somewhere “extradimensional” is not even in breach of the rules of the duel – or even more of a case could be made that Lycanthromancer’s wizard lost in the buff round when he put his body into a bag of holding (which is nondimensional; difficult to argue that one is in breach of the rules of transportation away from the plane and not the other).

Roundup of the duel from a rules perspective

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So, to sum up where I perceive the biggest flaws of the duel:

• imo the wizard lost already before the duel began, since either he severed the astral chord himself, or left the material plane, or both.
• In case he had avoided these mistakes, he would not have been able to call the colossal dragons through the 20ft gates.
• And provided he had called some other big nasties to fight for him, the instances where – from his own description – he would have lost control were many and thus likely had lost as well (note that the contingency was only worded vs the fighter, not his own creatures out of control!).
• Moreover, I have shown plenty of reasons why the key spells used to win the duel for the wizard are not working the way as used in the duel.
• And all of this without the fighter even entering the picture, whose described tactics- as already pointed out in this thread – were awful for a level 20 character.

If anything, Lycanthromancer’s duel description is a really good example of how difficult it is to play high-level casters without accidently killing themselves (providing another good point of why the core game is balanced even at high levels), or miscasting and thus losing quickly to the lethal level 20 challenges.

Some more observations from a tactics perspective

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The setup of the duel was heavily biased in favour of the caster:

• an infinite plain for the wizard
• being allowed a buff round,
• having full spells and
• enough XP to craft and cast XP cost spells without losing a level.

This greatly favours a caster because

• Concealment and cover by natural or inhabited terrain make spellcasting more difficult (which needs line of effect and sight for most attacks)
• A caster, with a buff round, can make more use of said buff round, say to shore up his greater vulnerabilities (e.g. for a wizard low AC, low hp, low fort save etc)
• Full spells available allows to nova which is not the standard for the game and thus reveals little about balance
• XP spent at no penalty for character (like, being a level lower with lower wbl as well) means just cheating wbl and sidestepping the restrictions set on the most powerful spells like gate.

Other observations of note illustrating how little impressive the performance of Lycanthromancer’s wizard was in this duel:

• The mentioned alternative spell combos of rock to mud and mud to rock or reverse gravity and prismatic sphere do not convince me. The fighter had a flying speed of 100’ (and likely escape pods like a dimension door effect or whatever). Thus I do not see these combos as endangering this level 20 fighter (or most lvl 20 builds known to me, for that matter).
• Interestingly, the ring gates and the rings of spell turning (if it had been possible for the familiar to actually put them on by the rules) vanish with the called creatures after 20 rounds. Possibly the wizard can ask them back – but this already transcends the “fight for me” service that he asked of them (and the ring gates won’t come off easily). So, near 280k of gold gone in this duel – even if successful, that is a cost of 1/3 of the wizard’s wbl. I doubt even a joker monk at level 20 spends more in just one fight

Finally, on the fighter:

• While Lycanthromancer committed many rules mistakes imo that would have with strict interpretation resulted in his loss, the fighter player apparently had no idea how to either build a level 20 character with the core rules (and splatbook effects I did not perceive at all, excepting the raptorian race), nor to play one at such a high level.
• The fighter was supposed to KNOW all his life that one day he would go against a wizard. Strangely, he acted as if he had no clue at all what spells can do and how to interpret them when he sees their effect (the spellcraft skill, even when taken cross-class, has fixed DCs and is quite affordable for a level 20 character to boost; and apparently the fighter even had arcane sight on). It is as if the wizard would have considered staying next to the fighter (not knowing about his ability to full attack) would be a great idea to start combat so as to better use his touch spells.
• Having said that, going to and staying in the vicinity of two apparently gated massive creatures next to you is utterly absurd (note that the fighter would have heard the command for service given by the wizard). Even more absurd is to play the wizard’s game and exchanging full attacks with said creatures that are likely only present temporarily.
• As already hinted by my assessment above, a better strategy of the fighter would have been to turtle as well and thus let the only real offensive strategy of the wizard (i.e. gate spell) dissipate harmlessly. Likewise, all buffs but the stonewall would have gone away over time on the wizard’s side – whose standard “scry-and-die” tactic or “withdraw to other plane/MMM, relearn spells and nova again” strategy were blocked by the duel’s rules not to leave the plane.
• It is very unfortunate that the fighter’s player never even posted or voiced his opinion on any thread, nor is the exact build and tactics available. So we are all quite dependant on Lycanthromancer’s perspective on this, which may be biased.

So, taking everything together, I have no clue why such a bad performance on both sides of the duel (fighter on the tactical side and wizard on the rules side) is paraded time and again as evidence of wizard superiority in the core rules.
But maybe there are some explanations and/or different rules interpretations that I’d like to hear, or something that I overlooked. In the thread above, so far, some of my concerns have already been raised, but most were not.

- Giacomo