De-optimization challenge: Solar vs. Darkstalker Rogue

[Mooncrow]

There comes a point when magic just does it better.  Now lemme ask this.  I believe most of you will get this analogy.  You have to trim down your lawn.  You have a choice between a push mower or a gas powered lawn mower.  Both get the job done but one is faster and more efficient which would you prefer?  If you are a masochist maybe or you like doing things a harder way then the push mower is what you choose otherwise...

That is more the point TSS is making, in my eyes.  Why would I take move silently when I can fly?  Why hide when I can be invisible?  Things like that.

Now a house rule some may consider is this.  Magic only works on magic while mundane works on mundane.  Example:  Knock spell only works on magical locks.  A mundane lock needs open lock.

That's actually not the argument that TSS is making at all - to use your analogy, he's saying that only gas powered lawn mowers are capable of cutting the lawn.

Honestly, given your posts thus far, I think you're kind of missing the point of these boards. 

[Halinn]

There comes a point when magic just does it better.  Now lemme ask this.  I believe most of you will get this analogy.  You have to trim down your lawn.  You have a choice between a push mower or a gas powered lawn mower.  Both get the job done but one is faster and more efficient which would you prefer?  If you are a masochist maybe or you like doing things a harder way then the push mower is what you choose otherwise...

That is more the point TSS is making, in my eyes.  Why would I take move silently when I can fly?  Why hide when I can be invisible?  Things like that.

Now a house rule some may consider is this.  Magic only works on magic while mundane works on mundane.  Example:  Knock spell only works on magical locks.  A mundane lock needs open lock.

That's actually not the argument that TSS is making at all - to use your analogy, he's saying that only gas powered lawn mowers are capable of cutting the lawn.

Honestly, given your posts thus far, I think you're kind of missing the point of these boards.

There's also the issue in the analogy that while both cut the grass, and one obviously does it faster, it does not account for which mower does it better, i.e. in some cases the "correct" option is hand-trimming the golf course, to achieve the most even cut you can.
I have no idea what this analogy would mean to DnD. Invisibility being faster and simpler to perform than hiding, but hiding less easy to detect, maybe?

[Unbeliever]

+1 Mooncrow

And, as my earlier posts indicate, mundanes are certainly going to suck more if you add in a bunch of "mundanes suck" rules to the game. 

[RetroGamer24]

Lemme see.  I make a post agreeing with someone and get told I am missing the point of the boards.  Nothing is said about the numbers I bring up.  I am even betting I can say that the rogue during a surprise round gets a standard attack, so one attack, which means if he is ranged he gets 42 point of damage and if melee about 21 points.  So next round, if ranged monster can move and cast if rogue remains still, if rogue doesnt remain still to either opt to snipe or move and shoot monster knows  by the square where the rogue is.


...nevermind.  I am more stunned then anything.

[awaken_D_M_golem]

corner case:

I think if the Solar had the Vow Of Peace, it would be quite gimped.
A Solar would take the Vow seriously - compelled by it's [Good] nature.
It would probably be in the Solar's interests to fulfill the Vow,
down to the last letter ... even in the case of self-extermination. 
This to prove it's worth to it's superiors.
A Solar really has no choice about whether it follows it's "programming".

Assuming the Rogue could hire out some Divinations ahead of time,
plausible tactics could be figured.

[Mooncrow]

Lemme see.  I make a post agreeing with someone and get told I am missing the point of the boards.  Nothing is said about the numbers I bring up.  I am even betting I can say that the rogue during a surprise round gets a standard attack, so one attack, which means if he is ranged he gets 42 point of damage and if melee about 21 points.  So next round, if ranged monster can move and cast if rogue remains still, if rogue doesnt remain still to either opt to snipe or move and shoot monster knows  by the square where the rogue is.


...nevermind.  I am more stunned then anything.

What numbers did you bring up in the post I quoted?  I was pointing out that you are fundamentally misunderstanding the point of the poster that you are trying to defend.  That seems like a pretty important thing to point out. 

The comment about you misunderstanding the point of the boards was an aside, but still important, I think.  We're here to answer questions other than "what's the best class" - if that's the only concern, the only discussion would be the debate between whether a Fernia/Quoria Planar Shepherd beats SCM/Incantatrix Wizard or Dweomerkeeper for the top spot. 

Degree matters, context matters, comprehension matters.  Thus far, you've been trying your best to ignore all three. 

[Unbeliever]

Again, +1 ^

Also, your numbers are kind of silly and reply #183 is incomprehensible. 

I don't really have a dog in the rogue v. solar fight.  As I've said before, I think the solar is a bad opponent for any test b/c it's really a cleric+.  I've posted in this thread for the same reason several others have:  in order to respond to some statements that make no sense and do not fit in the rules or how D&D is played. 

But, since you're talking about straight numbers in a straight fight, consider the following, super obvious build.  Note, I am NOT contending this is how a fight between such combatants would roll or how it would happen in practice.  I am just taking on the blithe "straight fight, rogue jumps solar" thing.

What I want is us to stop kidding ourselves (or some of us to, at least) that these stock Monster Manual opponents are so terrifying that 80% of the stuff in D&D is useless against them.  Even the mighty Solar can't last 1 round against a reasonably optimized but incredibly straightforward build. 

I'm So Simple it Hurts

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I'm So Simple it Hurts rogue build
Rogue 20

• assume Dex modifier of +8, modest at 20th level
• Critical Items:  2 Force Splitting Hand Crossbows +4, Collar of Umbral Metamorphosis, Greater Shadow and Silent Moves armor, Gloves of the Balanced Hand, Rogue's Vest  (150,000 - 200,000 gp left to spend)
  
• Critical Feats:  Crossbow Sniper, Two Weapon Fighting, Savvy Rogue, Craven, Keen-Eared Scout, Hand Crossbow Focus

Going with the "rogue jumps solar" statement, let's see what happens: 

Can the Rogue sneak up on the Solar? 
Hell yes.  His Move Silently modifier is 64= 23 (ranks) +8 (Dex mod) +15 (silent moves) +6 (dark template) +12 (taking 12).  The Solar's Listen modifier is only +32.  The Rogue's Hide mod is even better.

Can the Rogue kill the Solar in a single barrage?
Certainly.  The Rogue's attack routine is as follows.  His full attack modifier is 28 = 15 (base attack bonus) + 8 (Dex mod) +4 (magic weapon) +1 (handcrossbow focus). 

His attack routine is +28 x2/+28 x2/+23 x2/+23 x2/I don't care about these ...

A flat-footed Solar's AC is 30 (I don't believe he has any permanent or at will abilities that affect that, but please correct me if I'm wrong). 

The Rogue's damage, including sneak attack, is 1d4+4+4 (crossbow sniper)+11d6+20 = 63 average.  It's force damage, so it ignores DR.  The Solar has 209 hp, so is dead in 4 hits.  Which means barring fluke dice rolling, he's dead in the first barrage. 

And, that's with a mind-numbingly simple build.  A more complicated scenario would require me to add more to it, but I'm going to get back to work.

[Halinn]

The comment about you misunderstanding the point of the boards was an aside, but still important, I think.  We're here to answer questions other than "what's the best class" - if that's the only concern, the only discussion would be the debate between whether a Fernia/Quoria Planar Shepherd beats SCM/Incantatrix Wizard or Dweomerkeeper for the top spot. 

My money's on either STP Erudite or Psionic Artificer. Perhaps the archivist dweomerkeeper with every known spell is an option too, but it's not an important question, since they're all so inferior to Pun-Pun it doesn't really matter.

[RetroGamer24]

About two years ago I went to a website called brilliantgameologists.com because I was looking for help in making a tank for one of my first D&D sessions.  I came across the crusader handbook and made a character designed around a build in the handbook.  All the information seemed spot on.  Well I played the chaarcter and at first it was okay but I found myself being replaces by a barbarian as main tank and doing very poor damage.  I was purplexed because things should have gone well but I felt like a fifth wheel in both the game and with the group.

Now I changed characters and builds a few times. Following info found on the boards there.  Things were meh at best just due to 1: The DM whom had a hard on for big muscular fighter types and 2: What I used while "optimized" by way of what the board said.  I know dice are a factor.

So the boards move and I move with them.  Didn't ever post much because I wasn't rping at the time.  When I did rp it was Call of Cthulhu or King Arthur so the board didn't have much help in those games. My post count before the past few weeks will show that.

After some posters here said some very intelligent things and from my own experience on how true those things are I came to agree with them.  These posters got a lot of flak just for, well, being correct.  I know there are lots of ways to playing a table top RPG but playing, by the rules as written (with some odd houserules dealing with magic but combat was straight) the intelligent posters proved it to me.  Now most of them are gone yet when others hold up the flag it is like yelling fire in a movie theater, so much flame and hate.

The boards are about enjoying a game, debating issues with it, and providing a service for gamers because there is still a lot of love for 3.x.  I never claimed to know it all but from what I experienced in a actual game I, believe, to safely know a good poster when I see it.

For thread topic:  Rogue fails by way of straight numbers I posted.  Also by ways of how hide can be beat (Life, mind, touch sight).  The rogue here is a hide specialist so not really a big help in a group. From personal experience I know this.

[Halinn]

RetroGamer, I think the issue at hand is that you (and some other posters) have had similar experiences, and go from that to a generalized image of what is viable or not, while others have had experiences that have run contrary to that (and probably have done the same thing with regards to generalizing, it's a fairly human thing to do). And from that mismatch of experiences and expectations, arguing ensued.

[snakeman830]

Life Sight can certainly locate (but not pinpoint) the Kobold.  This is why the best stealth specialists are undead or deathless.

Mind Sight is questionable due to text in Lords of Madness suggesting that undead can't be located by it, and the only reason why no undead would be able to be detected is their immunity to mind-affecting, which Mind Blank also confers.

Touch Sight can definitely pinpoint the Kobold.

Even so, note that all of those require small subsets of enemies (Life Sight doesn't help undead, due to the Shirt of Wraith Stalking the Kobold has had since the beginning).  Touch Sight requires 9 Psion/Eurudite manifester levels.  Mind Sight requires telepathy.

Every character that's not Pun Pun has a counter, even in their main schtick  Imagine a Shadowcraft Mage who hits Spell Turning and has those 120% real spells hitting him in the face (since he knows they're "not real").

My actual challenge was to pick a non-epic, stock SRD monster, not a CR 20 or anything.  Since it was a request for stock, dragons were automatically excluded due to no complete statblocks on the SRD for them.  I later expanded it to any stock monster from anywhere, and so far, the only real challenge in a straight up fight was a Great Wyrm Gold from Draconomicon who still didn't have a great chance of locating the Kobold while it was attacking (and if he wasn't attacking, the Gold had no chance whatsoever).

[Halinn]

My actual challenge was to pick a non-epic, stock SRD monster, not a CR 20 or anything.  Since it was a request for stock, dragons were automatically excluded due to no complete statblocks on the SRD for them.  I later expanded it to any stock monster from anywhere, and so far, the only real challenge in a straight up fight was a Great Wyrm Gold from Draconomicon who still didn't have a guarantee of locating the Kobold while it was attacking (and if he wasn't attacking, the Gold had no chance whatsoever).

Black Ethergaunt (Fiend Folio p65). Hides on the ethereal until its Total Vision finds you. Then it buffs up, and pops in to kill you.

[snakeman830]

My actual challenge was to pick a non-epic, stock SRD monster, not a CR 20 or anything.  Since it was a request for stock, dragons were automatically excluded due to no complete statblocks on the SRD for them.  I later expanded it to any stock monster from anywhere, and so far, the only real challenge in a straight up fight was a Great Wyrm Gold from Draconomicon who still didn't have a guarantee of locating the Kobold while it was attacking (and if he wasn't attacking, the Gold had no chance whatsoever).

Black Ethergaunt (Fiend Folio p65). Hides on the ethereal until its Total Vision finds you. Then it buffs up, and pops in to kill you.

Good, we have another example.  It does rely on the Kobold not having See Invisibility up, though, as then the Kobold could shoot at it while it was buffing (or before getting within Total Vision range, depending on luck) (Force extends from material to ethereal, after all).  Even so, the chances of the Kobold having that particular buff up if it didn't already suspect something are slim to none.

[RetroGamer24]

I am sticking with the Solar as it is what started this thread.  There seems to be some big misconception on how the rogue is getting such "big numbers" in terms of damage.  Let us start from the top.

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Rogue arrives at secret shrine after finding some information on it. (We will hand wave objections due to focusing on combat).  Now it was agreed upon on the first page alarm would be used but not determined where (And right now I don't give a fig if it was because I don't feel like reading back 10 pages).  For sake of simpleness we will assume it is placed inside the shrine.  Also for sake of simpleness we will assume only one entrance into said shrine.  Why?  Well it is a secret shrine that is being guarded, why would there be more then one entrance?  Now rogue makes way to front door, alarm not tripped due to it being inside shine.

Rogue has three options for going in.  I am going to assume walking in is out just because the rogue is a tad smarter then that.  Flying in is another option as it would by pass floor traps.  The other option is to teleport in with use of the maneuver.  Either of these three methods trigger alarm.  We can say Solar is standing near the door, facing it or at side of it, and alarm give Solar mental "ping" as something is there.  Now if flying in Rogue is probably first concerned with tripping any traps but can also be looking around for guards.  If teleporting at start of encounter then rogue has used up the maneuver for the WHOLE encounter and cannot use it again. Say rogue has see invisiblity on so it may see the Solar (roll on it as unknown if rogue is taking 20 but can take 12 due to Savvy Rogue feat. But if Solar is hiding for an ambush then it would be taking 20 so rogue may lose this check.)  Again we will say rogue wins for sake of combat.

Solar doesn't know where rogue is but is aware something triggered alarm.  I am safe to assume the inside is with a permanent daylight spell as it is a Good aligned shrine and a door can block out light outside if needing to be hidden.  So hide in plain sight is null and void (let us not get into a squabble over this as Meepo is still hidden). Rogue spots Solar (miracle [pun intended]) and gets a surprise attack.

Here is the damage area.  We will use both routes. 1.) Rogue uses ranged.  Being 60' out rogue fires one shot (surprise round gets a standard action so only one attack). Calculating damage is 10 (average from hand x-bow) plus 9d6 of SA (-3d6 for deafness) which is average of 31. Counting Aid and Renegeration (I would say Bear's Endurance too but probably pushing it) that is average of 29 points null which leaves two points of damage next round.  Roll initiative and rogue wins (sake of argument). Now what does rogue do? If move and hit then average damage is now 37 (Regen of Solar) but Solar knows where rogue is by square (from being hit) and can use Wave of Exhaustion which makes Meepo helpless and dead next round (coup de grace).  Rogue can full attack, doing more damage is around 198 but that is being a tad generous (IMO) but this leaves rogue open to being seen (can't hide with full attack as it is a move action)  which leaves Solar to look, move, and Wave of Exhaustion Meepo for round 2 CdG.  Meepo can snipe but that means 27 points of damage (after Regen), again Solar knows square (not pin point) hits wave of exhaustion and CdG.  All of this is just about every thing I can think of.  I guess if Meepo moves outside of door/shrine after surprise attack that could ignore Solar attack but Solar can block door and Meepo is not in shrine.

Quickly to melee.  Same thing in a way as Meepo surprise so max of 9d6 damage (less as Staggering doesn't have a SA die reduction in the book [that I found] but someone may rule a die reduction to the ambush feat].  Dagger is feycraft so one size catagory smaller then listed so for a small kobold it is 1d2 + 2 (average 3) damage.  DR laughs as no damage in inflicted.  Stagger and Deaf go off and Solar again only takes 2 points due to Regen and Aid.  Rogue win next round.  This time move and shoot or full attack. Move and shoot does 37 average. Solar knows roughly what square, WoE as in range, CdG next round as Meepo is helpless.  Full attack gives us 153 from SA (Regen), rogue exposed, WoE, then CdG next turn.

Either way Meepo is not winning as Solar can do much more as I have shown.  Meepo can move and teleport but that wastes teleport and he has to move in closer for SA to work (Crossbow sniper) which is in range of WoE and a loss of a turn.  This is as exhaustive as I can be.  I know it is a wall o text but meh.

TLDR: Rogue cannot do enough damage to win this fight.  Surprise round gives it ONE attack which is useless as Regen and Aid (agreed upon at start of thread) take the SA damage to like 2 due to wanting to use deafness. No deafness means more damage but maybe a loss at initiative roll so Solar one rounds the rogue with WoE.  Standard action is one melee so no way rogue can pull off 300+ damage heck not even 200+ or 100+ as it stands.  Meepo doesn't have pounce so the tactics described are its choices.

Conclusion. Solar vs Meepo = Solar win.

ASIDE: Solar, being CR 23, has 290,000 gp for NPC of this CR.  Two weapons bring this total down to 199,400 gp,  I am sure Solar will have some kind of armor with Heavy Fortification as it is well within budget (not to mention common sense).  So SA would be void from start and all the above boils down to us get hit by toothpick (range or melee), face direction, WoE, CdG next round.

If snake add in anything for strength increase I answer why?  Rogue is shown here to be dex focused.  Makes no sense for it to have that especially in a team environment of D&D.  Please don't add it in as you are just tailoring Meepo to the encounter.  TY

[zugschef]

I am sure Solar will have some kind of armor with Heavy Fortification

this

[Unbeliever]

...
ASIDE: Solar, being CR 23, has 290,000 gp for NPC of this CR.  Two weapons bring this total down to 199,400 gp,  I am sure Solar will have some kind of armor with Heavy Fortification as it is well within budget (not to mention common sense).  So SA would be void from start and all the above boils down to us get hit by toothpick (range or melee), face direction, WoE, CdG next round.

There is absolutely no indication, anywhere in D&D that I know of, that monsters get full treasure allotment as an NPC = their CR.  None.  I will patiently wait for someone to find me a citation anywhere and prove me wrong.  This has been repeated in these threads, but it's something that it seems one person made up and is being parroted. 

Now, one can argue the "rules don't say they don't, so ..."  Not only is that a bad type of argument, but it has absurd results.  It means that every monster over about CR 10 in the monster manuals' stat blocks are nigh worthless.  Why?  B/c they are missing +X to all saves due to the cloaks of resistance, +Y to attacks due to magic weapons, and so on.  And, that's setting aside how this will throw WBL out of whack really soon.

Monsters have and use the equipment that is listed in their stat blocks.  If you want to add more to them, that's a DM prerogative, akin to adding class levels, templates, and so on.  But, there is nothing to indicate anywhere that every monster (or even every intelligent monster) has equipment of a character of level = their CR.  This is made more explicit in the later monster manuals when combat gear is given its own place on their statblock. 



P.S.:  @RetroGamer24, unless I'm reading it wrong, you are not understanding how sneak attack interacts with DR.  It's one attack, so you subtract DR from the damage total.  For example, say you have a normal dagger and 10d6 sneak attack and are attacking a monster with DR 10.  Then, the damage is 1d4+10d6 - 10, for an average of 2.5 + 35 - 10 = 27.5. 

I also noticed you ignored my rogue build.  If you want to focus on the one that was presented by the OP, that's fine.  It may suck, I have no idea, I haven't even looked at it.  But, it's trivially easy to construct a rogue that gets "big numbers" to murder a solar.  Doing damage has never been a problem for charopp.  Whether it can sneak into the shrine as it has been presented or any other thing I remain agnostic about.  But, murdering him in a single round, so in a standard if somewhat unrealistic "rogue jumps solar" scenario, it's no problem. 

[Jackinthegreen]

A relevant part in the DMG for the NPC wealth discussion starts on page 111 and continues on 112.

READING THE NPC DESCRIPTIONS
The NPC descriptions that follow summarize a lot of information about the NPCs they describe...
Gear: This column lists the basic armor, generic melee and ranged weapons (mundane, masterwork, or magical), and common types of magic equipment each NPC has...
The wealth possessed by an NPC in excess of his or her gear’s value is indicated at the end of this entry and can be used to purchase additional equipment as desired.

That is followed by tables with the NPC details.  A 1st level NPC barbarian is noted as having masterwork scale, masterwork melee, mundane ranged, and 200g.  The armor is worth 200g, the melee weapon is at least 300g, and the mundane is anywhere from 0 (sling) to 100g (comp longbow).  This is 700-800g, which is a bit short of the 900g stated for a level 1 NPC on page 127 in the DMG.  Or there's the wizard list which starts with a couple mundane weapons and 800g.

In short, there's at least that set of tables for NPC's with player class levels.  I don't see anything in the DMG about monsters without class levels though.

Looking in the MM though, there's this entry on page 7:

Treasure
This line reflects how much wealth the creature owns and refers to Table 3–5: Treasure on page 52 of the Dungeon Master’s Guide.
In most cases, a creature keeps valuables in its home or lair and has no treasure with it when it travels. Intelligent creatures that own useful, portable treasure (such as magic items) tend to carry and use these, leaving bulky items at home. See the glossary for more details on using the Treasure line of each monster entry.

Alright then, let's look at the Solar's treasure entry :
No coins, double goods, standard items.

Assuming we're to use the Solar's CR as its level, it'll have whatever goods, a small chance to not have any items, but if it does have items it'll be 1d4 medium or 1d3 major magic items, plus the 4 guaranteed major magic items for being 23rd level.  If even decent armor isn't one of those magic items, there is something very, VERY wrong.

[Nachofan99]

I would cite DMG pg. 51 "Monsters With Treasure".

The way I read it, monsters have the treasure but don't always use all or even part of the treasure.  Additionally, it seems like unless you have NPC levels and "gold value worth of treasure" monsters accept the random rolls for what they have.  RAW?

So a Solar that randomly gets Fort armor will be a problem.  Another Solar that randomly rolls up Glamored armor less so.

[Jackinthegreen]

If you're absolutely playing it where you have to roll to get the creature's treasure, then yes.  The catch is those tables (both the one starting at DMG 51 and the ones at MiC 265+) are there only to facilitate a quick and easy way to randomly dole out treasure.  Even using that, a DM will hopefully redo some things based on the campaign such as if he rolled for Buoyant armor in the middle of a wasteland with no puddles much less bodies of water where swimming is possible.  The players will simply look at the DM like "WTF?" and just forget that enhancement even exists even through selling it.

The DMG at the very least hopes for the DM to have common sense.  Likewise, a creature like a Solar with 23 Int and 25 Wis, plus pretty darn good resources at its disposal, will certainly have defenses against common threats like critical hits/SA.  RAW doesn't necessarily take that into consideration, but if that's what has to be used then so be it.

[Unbeliever]

So far it seems that at best the monster is getting a lot less than a character with class levels would have and it is debatable that it has any control over that. Those items just might represent things it has found, for example since it has no item creation feats.

Just to respond to JackintheGreen: I'm a huge fan of common sense and building a breathing world that has verisimilitude. The argument that a creature or entity is smart and therefore will have a certain defense or item gives me pause though. It reads in the ability to counter various characters abilities and to potentially do so from the god's eye position of the DM. To the extent the MM's have any usefulness in making these general judgments about characters and classes I would hesitate to do so. Add enough or the right gear to a monster and it's stat block is going to change an awful lot.

That's just for these meta discussions though. In a game I was actually involved in that makes perfect sense. Then again all Solars would be unique individuals with names and titles and so on.