Author Topic: De-optimization challenge: Solar vs. Darkstalker Rogue  (Read 80788 times)

Offline Unbeliever

  • Legendary Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 2288
  • gentleman gamer
    • View Profile
Re: De-optimization challenge: Solar vs. Darkstalker Rogue
« Reply #60 on: April 14, 2012, 02:48:00 PM »
...
See when a monster, this is all my opinion btw, is just grabbed whole out from any monster manual it is DM trying something new or DM panic mode where the toughest thing is supposed to take care of a party that is roflstomping encounters.
Huh?  So, you never use stock monsters?  By which I mean a monster just as written in the book.  That's weird, b/c I use them like 90% of the time.  I may throw on a few feats to change up their fighting style, or a template, but that's only about half the time in the games I'm usually involved in. 

Indeed, one of the great advantages D&D has for a GM, as opposed to say Godlike, White Wolf, Mutants and Masterminds, Star Wars Saga Edition, Burning Wheel ... ad nauseum, is that it has a wealth of pregenerated enemies and some (highly imperfect) guidance as to who they represent a challenge to.  You're suggesting that it's odd to use that one big advantage it has. 

The situation here is a Solar tasked to guard an area.  "Stock" Solar would not be used because this is a special encounter due to the nature of what is said.  If I was DM and made this up, against a party of four, Solar would have level appropriate gear, different spells, and maybe some skill changes.  This is either a boss challenge or a mini boss challenge not group of El 23 characters rushing a celestial place where Solars are common guards.  If the Solar is supposed to be a common guard, which is how I see something EL 23, then yes the Solar from the MM is fine because it is not supposed to be specific.  But this is one Solar guarding a special place against EL20 characters.  So yes it would have gear and other things tailors to protecting an area and not "stock" monster things.

Henceforth nerfing "stock" monster Solar, to me, doesn't make this a worthwhile challenge due to how you designed it.  Because it would summon things to aid in patrolling because it wasn't given orders otherwise and it is rather smart to do so.  Heck if this was a written scenario the rogue would have to go through a whole lot more, waste more resources, before meeting the Solar.
...
This thread was, I believe, spun off from a "rogue's suck" type of argument.  I don't see how any of the above quote even jives with D&D, or any useful exercise, though.  First off, the stock Solar, meaning the one in the Monster Manual without any changes, is supposed to be an ok encounter for a group of level 20ish characters.  That's what CR means.  You can debate its accuracy, but that is what it's supposed to mean. 

It's obvious that a powerful monster given sufficient gear, help, and set-up could prove really really challenging against whatever party or characters can be conceived.  But, all that's been said there is that "it is theoretically possible for the DM to challenge such and such group of players and characters."  Unless we're in hard-core TO territory, that strikes me as sufficiently obvious to be assumed.  Call it an axiom. 

If you were to give the Solar 100,000 gp worth of gear, allies (beyond its summoning capacity, see below*), customized spells to counter the particular party's abilities, you'd be raising its effective CR.  Now, that might be fine, it's CR might be low-balled or whatever anyway, but that is what would be going on.  There's no way that adding a template like half-dragon, which increases its stats and so on, increases its CR while giving it magic items that could have literally the same effect wouldn't.  This was made more clear in later monster manuals as specific combat gear was included and separated from treasure. 

In short, you can't just say "it's a high level encounter, so I'm going to give this already high level monster additional stuff to make it challenging" and call it a day.  Or, let me be clear, you totally can (and probably should, to be honest) do so in your campaign.  But, if we're testing whether a build or tactic is viable, then you shouldn't. 

*That being said, I would fully expect a Solar set to guard duty to summon all sorts of patrolling minions to the limits of its ability or ease.  That must makes sense.  Especially since the Solar has better things to do than worry about every stray goblin that happens by, like contemplating the nature of creation or something.  Frankly, I find that much more plausible, given the implied personality of these guys, than them hanging out invisibly for ages on end. 

If I were asked to judge the power of a Solar vs. a build I'd use the stock one, including all of its abilities and spells as written (i.e., not changed to foil any particular tactics), or perhaps changed slightly to give it some guarding type spells -- the Solar knows that's what it's job is going to be.  The only one I might set aside is Miracle b/c it's too open-ended.  Personally, I don't think it's super helpful since it's a caster monster, so it's almost like just judging a high-level cleric v. a high-level rogue, so I would have gone for a different opponent.  But, that's just my humble opinion. 

Offline ImperatorK

  • Legendary Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 2313
  • Chara did nothing wrong.
    • View Profile
    • Kristof Imperator YouTube Channel
Re: De-optimization challenge: Solar vs. Darkstalker Rogue
« Reply #61 on: April 14, 2012, 02:56:57 PM »
Lets not forget that it's a APL+3 (and epic at that) encounter. Last time I checked Solars where CR 23. The kobold is level 20 and alone.
Magic is for weaklings.

Alucard: "*snif snif* Huh? Suddenly it reeks of hypocrisy in here. Oh, if it isn't the Catholic Church. And what's this? No little Timmy glued to your crotch. Progress!"
My YT channel - LoL gameplay

Offline Halinn

  • Legendary Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 2067
  • My personal text is impersonal.
    • View Profile
Re: De-optimization challenge: Solar vs. Darkstalker Rogue
« Reply #62 on: April 14, 2012, 02:58:25 PM »
If miracle is to be used in the Solar tactics (and there's no reason it should not be possible, although I suggest doing that last consideration, if you can find no other way to defeat the rogue), it should be limited to the explicitly stated non-experience costing abilities:
  • Duplicate any cleric spell of 8th level or lower (including spells to which you have access because of your domains).
  • Duplicate any other spell of 7th level or lower.
  • Undo the harmful effects of certain spells, such as feeblemind or insanity.

Offline RetroGamer24

  • Full Member
  • **
  • Posts: 170
  • I wanna be a Bishie.
    • View Profile
    • My youtube channel
Re: De-optimization challenge: Solar vs. Darkstalker Rogue
« Reply #63 on: April 14, 2012, 03:47:23 PM »
Un I never said nor wanting to imply I don't use stock monsters.  Nor did I bring up being TO anything.  My point on this is that this encounter, TO ME, is more along the lines of the Solar having a set of gear appropriate.  Hell I can even say like medium fortification on celestial full plate, the shine itself having some traps, and other small things.

Heck it is even noted that the solar can move silently better then the rogue presented.  Listen from Solar to Rogue Move Silently breaks dead even at take 20.  Only thing here is spot vs hide.  Now with daylight the dark template from the collar is null.  It can be safe to assume that Solar can have a spell on it to help increase wisdom as it is smart to note it has some weaknesses and will try to cover those as best as possible.

Miracle, to me again, is a last resort for the solar.  Solar is smart enough to note that if it got attacked so it will do something about it.  Namely if it is attacked then is knows what square the attack comes from.  Now ranges sure but for rogue to get staggering off it needed to be melee.

I am honestly done with thread just because I have learned new things from it while people like ImpK flail around wanting to see a 22hd outsider with nothing get trounced by meh build.

First post, again, said it.  No Cleric 20 casting,. no wealth or feats of appropriate level, and no 1/day wish.  Hence not a Solar.

TY and good day sirs.
YES! YES!                     YES! YES! YES!

"Do not argue with an idiot. He will drag you down to his level and beat you with experience"
Samuel Clemmins

Offline ImperatorK

  • Legendary Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 2313
  • Chara did nothing wrong.
    • View Profile
    • Kristof Imperator YouTube Channel
Re: De-optimization challenge: Solar vs. Darkstalker Rogue
« Reply #64 on: April 14, 2012, 03:53:50 PM »
Quote
is more along the lines of the Solar having a set of gear appropriate.  Hell I can even say like medium fortification on celestial full plate, the shine itself having some traps, and other small things.
The appropriate gear is listed in the statblock. Anything more and the CR goes up.

Quote
I am honestly done with thread just because I have learned new things from it while people like ImpK flail around wanting to see a 22hd outsider with nothing get trounced by meh build.
Hahaha. That's so ironic.
Magic is for weaklings.

Alucard: "*snif snif* Huh? Suddenly it reeks of hypocrisy in here. Oh, if it isn't the Catholic Church. And what's this? No little Timmy glued to your crotch. Progress!"
My YT channel - LoL gameplay

Offline Kethrian

  • Legendary Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 2232
  • Night Owl
    • View Profile
Re: De-optimization challenge: Solar vs. Darkstalker Rogue
« Reply #65 on: April 14, 2012, 04:19:43 PM »
So the real question this thread raises is: How badly do you have to nerf a Solar before the rogue is finally able to win an encounter against it?  Why not ask how much you have to nerf a titan before a lv 20 monk can win?  Or Balor vs fighter?

Not that PCs should be trying to solo anything, the game is designed around the idea of 4 PCs that work together and support each other to defeat threats.
What do I win?
An awesome-five for mentioning Penny Arcade's On the Rain-Slick Precipice of Darkness.

Offline ImperatorK

  • Legendary Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 2313
  • Chara did nothing wrong.
    • View Profile
    • Kristof Imperator YouTube Channel
Re: De-optimization challenge: Solar vs. Darkstalker Rogue
« Reply #66 on: April 14, 2012, 04:30:20 PM »
Quote
So the real question this thread raises is: How badly do you have to nerf a Solar before the rogue is finally able to win an encounter against it?  Why not ask how much you have to nerf a titan before a lv 20 monk can win?  Or Balor vs fighter?
No. The real question here is: How much optimization and favorable circumstances does a stock epic monster need to be a threat for an optimized solo Rogue. and it looks like the answer is: Quite a lot.
Magic is for weaklings.

Alucard: "*snif snif* Huh? Suddenly it reeks of hypocrisy in here. Oh, if it isn't the Catholic Church. And what's this? No little Timmy glued to your crotch. Progress!"
My YT channel - LoL gameplay

Offline Kethrian

  • Legendary Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 2232
  • Night Owl
    • View Profile
Re: De-optimization challenge: Solar vs. Darkstalker Rogue
« Reply #67 on: April 14, 2012, 04:37:44 PM »
Quote
So the real question this thread raises is: How badly do you have to nerf a Solar before the rogue is finally able to win an encounter against it?  Why not ask how much you have to nerf a titan before a lv 20 monk can win?  Or Balor vs fighter?
No. The real question here is: How much optimization and favorable circumstances does a stock epic monster need to be a threat for an optimized solo Rogue. and it looks like the answer is: Quite a lot.

Really?  Stripping a Solar of all its spells and spell-like abilities, and putting it into an unfavourable position for the encounter is optimizing it?
What do I win?
An awesome-five for mentioning Penny Arcade's On the Rain-Slick Precipice of Darkness.

Offline ImperatorK

  • Legendary Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 2313
  • Chara did nothing wrong.
    • View Profile
    • Kristof Imperator YouTube Channel
Re: De-optimization challenge: Solar vs. Darkstalker Rogue
« Reply #68 on: April 14, 2012, 04:41:22 PM »
Quote
So the real question this thread raises is: How badly do you have to nerf a Solar before the rogue is finally able to win an encounter against it?  Why not ask how much you have to nerf a titan before a lv 20 monk can win?  Or Balor vs fighter?
No. The real question here is: How much optimization and favorable circumstances does a stock epic monster need to be a threat for an optimized solo Rogue. and it looks like the answer is: Quite a lot.

Really?  Stripping a Solar of all its spells and spell-like abilities, and putting it into an unfavourable position for the encounter is optimizing it?
No, but I'm not forcing anyone to strip the Solar of it's powers. And all I read here are suggestions how to use his powers in the most optimized way or that the shrine should be trapped. If all that is needed to threaten the Rogue then it doesn't even matter if he wins or not, it was already proven that he's not that weak as some of you say.
« Last Edit: April 14, 2012, 04:43:34 PM by ImperatorK »
Magic is for weaklings.

Alucard: "*snif snif* Huh? Suddenly it reeks of hypocrisy in here. Oh, if it isn't the Catholic Church. And what's this? No little Timmy glued to your crotch. Progress!"
My YT channel - LoL gameplay

Offline Kethrian

  • Legendary Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 2232
  • Night Owl
    • View Profile
Re: De-optimization challenge: Solar vs. Darkstalker Rogue
« Reply #69 on: April 14, 2012, 04:47:48 PM »
No, but I'm not forcing anyone to strip the Solar of it's powers. And all I read here are suggestions how to use his powers in the most optimized way or that the shrine should be trapped. If all that is needed to threaten the Rogue then it doesn't even matter if he wins or not, it was already proven that he's not that weak as some of you say.

In that case, a single Waves of Exhaustion is enough to render the kobold helpless.  A coup de grace is all that's needed afterward.
What do I win?
An awesome-five for mentioning Penny Arcade's On the Rain-Slick Precipice of Darkness.

Offline Tubercular Ox

  • Lurker
  • *
  • Posts: 37
  • I'm new! And always will be!
    • View Profile
Re: De-optimization challenge: Solar vs. Darkstalker Rogue
« Reply #70 on: April 14, 2012, 04:49:55 PM »
Why not ask how much you have to nerf a titan before a lv 20 monk can win?  Or Balor vs fighter?

I'm actually very interested in questions like this.  However, I have to try and ride whatever wave of energy is cruising through the board at the moment.

I had fun, I learned a lot, thank you to everyone for participating, but the thread really is starting to lose focus again.
Really?  Stripping a Solar of all its spells and spell-like abilities, and putting it into an unfavourable position for the encounter is optimizing it?

Case in point, while that was my original proposition, yes, within three posts it was changed to "stock solar."  Stock powers, stock spells, stock equipment.  The encounter itself was chosen as being slightly better than the infinite featureless plain.  No one at the time thought it was an unfavorable position for the solar.  In fact, we even gave the solar the benefit of being "Guarding," and hence going through a boring 20 round guard routine, every 20 rounds, 24/7.  Thankfully, being an avatar of good and holiness probably gives one infinite patience.

In that case, a single Waves of Exhaustion is enough to render the kobold helpless.  A coup de grace is all that's needed afterward.

The kobold is hidden.  It is hidden mundanely, hence not visible to true seeing.  It can full attack the solar from hiding and kill it in one round.  The solar does not get a chance to cast waves of exhaustion.

Offline ImperatorK

  • Legendary Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 2313
  • Chara did nothing wrong.
    • View Profile
    • Kristof Imperator YouTube Channel
Re: De-optimization challenge: Solar vs. Darkstalker Rogue
« Reply #71 on: April 14, 2012, 04:54:54 PM »
Question: Does the kobold know what kind of guardian he's going to encounter? I think he should, because gathering info before you do something major like this is reasonable for a Rogue, especially the sneaky type.
In other words it's not unreasonable for the kobold to know th Solars strengths and weaknesses and prepare accordingly, just like the Solar can prepare for an intruder.
« Last Edit: April 14, 2012, 04:57:12 PM by ImperatorK »
Magic is for weaklings.

Alucard: "*snif snif* Huh? Suddenly it reeks of hypocrisy in here. Oh, if it isn't the Catholic Church. And what's this? No little Timmy glued to your crotch. Progress!"
My YT channel - LoL gameplay

Offline Kethrian

  • Legendary Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 2232
  • Night Owl
    • View Profile
Re: De-optimization challenge: Solar vs. Darkstalker Rogue
« Reply #72 on: April 14, 2012, 04:55:57 PM »
The first tactic I read that you went with was using that paste on the Solar.  Solar now knows which direction it came from, even if he can't see the kobold.  Waves of Exhaustion AoEs the kobold's area, doesn't allow save, reduces his str to 0.  Now helpless, he can't maintain his hidden state, and Solar just drifts over and beheads it.
What do I win?
An awesome-five for mentioning Penny Arcade's On the Rain-Slick Precipice of Darkness.

Offline ImperatorK

  • Legendary Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 2313
  • Chara did nothing wrong.
    • View Profile
    • Kristof Imperator YouTube Channel
Re: De-optimization challenge: Solar vs. Darkstalker Rogue
« Reply #73 on: April 14, 2012, 04:58:22 PM »
Solar doesn't automaticaly know where the kobold is. He has to spot him. And I'm not even sure if throwing a splash weapon (or whatever the paste is) is considered as attacking while hiding.
Magic is for weaklings.

Alucard: "*snif snif* Huh? Suddenly it reeks of hypocrisy in here. Oh, if it isn't the Catholic Church. And what's this? No little Timmy glued to your crotch. Progress!"
My YT channel - LoL gameplay

Offline TSS

  • Full Member
  • **
  • Posts: 188
    • View Profile
Re: De-optimization challenge: Solar vs. Darkstalker Rogue
« Reply #74 on: April 14, 2012, 04:59:25 PM »
Here's a question. How does the Rogue know there is a Solar there?

Quote
Change Shape (Su)

A solar can assume the form of any Small or Medium humanoid.

It would have no way of telling the Solar is anything other than a normal person until it's too late. And who expects a Solar to be on grunt duty?
@ TSS
That's cute. I see you changed your mind about "Not WoW Tanks" after all. It's nice to see you started to like subpar concepts.

Offline ImperatorK

  • Legendary Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 2313
  • Chara did nothing wrong.
    • View Profile
    • Kristof Imperator YouTube Channel
Re: De-optimization challenge: Solar vs. Darkstalker Rogue
« Reply #75 on: April 14, 2012, 05:01:39 PM »
Because he can gather info and learn that there's a Solar guarding the shrine?
Magic is for weaklings.

Alucard: "*snif snif* Huh? Suddenly it reeks of hypocrisy in here. Oh, if it isn't the Catholic Church. And what's this? No little Timmy glued to your crotch. Progress!"
My YT channel - LoL gameplay

Offline Kethrian

  • Legendary Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 2232
  • Night Owl
    • View Profile
Re: De-optimization challenge: Solar vs. Darkstalker Rogue
« Reply #76 on: April 14, 2012, 05:02:35 PM »
He knows which direction the paste came from, and that it was a thrown weapon.  A 60' cone is nearly guaranteed to engulf the kobold.  Sight isn't needed, just line of effect, which since the kobold has it, so does the Solar.

Does the paste require an attack roll, or inflict an undesired effect upon the Solar?  Then it's an attack.
What do I win?
An awesome-five for mentioning Penny Arcade's On the Rain-Slick Precipice of Darkness.

Offline ImperatorK

  • Legendary Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 2313
  • Chara did nothing wrong.
    • View Profile
    • Kristof Imperator YouTube Channel
Re: De-optimization challenge: Solar vs. Darkstalker Rogue
« Reply #77 on: April 14, 2012, 05:05:19 PM »
He will know if he succeeds on his Spot check.
Magic is for weaklings.

Alucard: "*snif snif* Huh? Suddenly it reeks of hypocrisy in here. Oh, if it isn't the Catholic Church. And what's this? No little Timmy glued to your crotch. Progress!"
My YT channel - LoL gameplay

Offline Kethrian

  • Legendary Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 2232
  • Night Owl
    • View Profile
Re: De-optimization challenge: Solar vs. Darkstalker Rogue
« Reply #78 on: April 14, 2012, 05:06:57 PM »
The paste, after having been thrown, isn't hidden.  Auto-success for the Solar, because he isn't freaking blind.  Kobold itself remains hidden, but is then hit with WoE, etc.
What do I win?
An awesome-five for mentioning Penny Arcade's On the Rain-Slick Precipice of Darkness.

Offline TSS

  • Full Member
  • **
  • Posts: 188
    • View Profile
Re: De-optimization challenge: Solar vs. Darkstalker Rogue
« Reply #79 on: April 14, 2012, 05:09:54 PM »
The kobold rolls his Gather Information skill of +2 to attempt to learn what is guarding the shrine.

He gets:

False information (most likely).
Nothing.
The knowledge that a small or medium humanoid of [race] is guarding it if he's very lucky or the DM is very generous.

He does not learn there is a Solar there. So when he goes and tries to light up the invisible Solar disguised as a humanoid that he somehow learned about, a Waves of Exhaustion is aimed in his general direction (which requires no check of any kind) and he instantly loses.

List of abilities required to automatically win vs Rogue: One SLA (the disguising is optional).
@ TSS
That's cute. I see you changed your mind about "Not WoW Tanks" after all. It's nice to see you started to like subpar concepts.