Min/Max Boards

Oh, and a real fun find: dndtools.pw. Enjoy.

If, for whatever reason, this link ends up going the way of the original, see also: http://kmalloy.cloudapp.net/dndtools.eu/index.html

Because Heighten Spell is limited only by the highest level spell you can cast then if you are claiming that you are granted the ability to cast X level spells simply by heightening a lower level known spell to that level and having a high enough attribute score to cast that level spell, then you are also claiming that a 1st level spellcaster can cast 9th level spells. There are a few Metamagic feats that you could take at 1st level, and heighten spell only requires you to know any other metamagic feat. There are various ways to get multiple 1st level feats, so it's entirely possible to have Heighten Spell at level 1. Since your only limited by your ability to cast spells of higher levels then you could by your logic heighten a 1st level spell all the way to 9th level and claim you have the ability to cast 9th level spells thus meeting the requirement for any spell level based feat & prC at level 1.

Oh, lord. You've set up a lovely straw-man there. Bravo. 

No, this is not my argument. Nor is that the limitation of Heighten. The limitation of Heighten is, generally, determined by your highest level spell slot. If I have a 2nd level slot, and I use Heighten to cast Magic Missile out of that 2nd level slot. By doing so, I am casting Magic Missile as a 2nd level spell. However, if that 2nd level slot is the highest slot I have available, then I cannot arbitrarily Heighten Magic Missile up to 9th level.

However, let's say that I do not have a 2nd level slot. What I DO have, however, is Earth Spell. With this set-up, let's say that I cast Prestidigitation, Heightened into a 1st level slot. At this point, I am casting Prestidigitation as a 1st level spell. Earth Spell then kicks in, and Heightens the spell one level further. Thus, I am casting Prestidigitation as a 2nd level spell. This is despite the fact that I do not have a 2nd level slot.

Frankly, I don't care that you disagree with this interpretation, faeryn. You are not, objectively speaking, right.

I apologize if my alternative understanding of the interaction of these feats has somehow offended you. However, I refuse to engage with you any further on this particular issue (at least within this thread).

If you would like to create a new thread for this particular issue, then please, by all means do so. We've already derailed this thread thoroughly enough.

Quote from: tuesdayscoming on September 12, 2014, 10:38:17 PM

If I'm understanding your interpretation correctly, this same logic would preclude use of any of the numerous early-entry tricks based on Sanctum Spell and other similar shenanigans?

As I understand it, such tricks are pretty well-accepted, and I would be hesitant to throw my trick out based on such a ruling.

Unless I'm misunderstanding your contention?

Not misunderstanding one bit. Every early entry shenanigan revolving around gaining access to higher level spells/powers than your class levels actually allow for are in fact impossible. No amount of Heightened Spells, Extra Spell Slots or any such tricks will raise the level of spells/powers you have the ability to use.

Absolutely nothing exists within any of the source books that grants you higher level spells/powers than your class levels allow. If there was then you can bet that all classes that stop at 5th level spells would have a spell list up through 9th. Not to mention many of the feats used even spell it out to you.

Sanctum spell raises the EFFECTIVE LEVEL of the spell, it does not actually make the spell a level higher, nor does it grant you the power to use a spell a level higher. Heighten Spell still requires you to actually possess the ability to cast a spell of the Heightened Spell's level. Extra Spell Slot grants you a spell slot of up to 1 level lower than you have the ability to cast. Extra Spell grants you any 1 spell up to the highest level you have the ability to cast. None of these feats or any of the feats like them give you the ability to cast X level spells. They all rely on your class progression to determine the highest level spell you can cast. Everything that uses ability to cast X Level spell as a requirement relies on that progression.

This is true in of Spellcasting, Psionics, Shadowcasting, Incantations, Infusions, and Soulmelds. It doesn't matter what type of casting class it is, you are restricted to the level progressions outlined in your class. There is no such thing as early entry with these, with the exception of accelerated progression Classes & prCs such as Ur-Priest.

Thank you for your response. Of course, I understand where you are coming from on this issue; it is one that has been debated hotly on this and other forums for quite some time.

Ultimately, though, there are valid points to be made on both sides. Moreover, the debate has already been done to death, and need not be repeated here.

I grant that, under your interpretation, tricks such as the one I posted above would not work. However, I and many others adhere to a different interpretation.

Granting, then, that Heighten, Sanctum, and similar effects DO IN FACT increase the level of a spell, is there anything that would prevent the trick I posted above from working?

edit: Alternatively, should I create a new thread for discussion of my trick? Now that I'm thinking about it, I feel bad about hijacking focus from OP. It was just such a similar focus...

I've been working on a method of getting 9th level spells on an erudite recently, too.

My method also relies on a Magic-Mantled Spell-to-Power Erudite.

Required Feats
* Earth Spell (and its prereqs)
* Eldritch Corruption

According to my understanding of the "Super-Transparency" interpretation, you should be able to apply Eldritch Corruption to a psionic power. This heightens the power by two levels for free (Say, from 7th to 9th level). From there, Earth Spell should bump it up one higher (making that same 7th level power count as 10th).

I've never seen this method discussed before, and was rather pleased to find it.

Assuming super-transparency, can anyone think of a reason that this should not work?

Quote from: tuesdayscoming on September 12, 2013, 07:10:26 PM

Forgive me, but does this really work? As I understand it, the ability to use a Spell-like ability =/= the ability to cast a spell for purposes of meeting prerequisites.

Am I mistaken?

You are. Check Complete Arcane, pg 72.

Hmm... Not by my reading. The rules there say "requirements for feats and prestige classes based on specific levels of spells cast (“Able to cast 3rd-level arcane spells,” for example) cannot be met by spell-like abilities or invocations—not even spell-like abilities or invocations that allow a character to use a specific arcane spell of the appropriate level or higher."

I'm looking for any and all creatures that, like the right honorable Dusk Giant and Barghest, have an ability that allows them to gain HD through methods other than experience gain.

Whether it be supernatural (like the Barghest's Feed ability), extraordinary (like the Dusk Giant's Cannibalize) or anything else under the sun, I'd like to know about it!

For those curious few: I'm working on a way to boost a creature's HD to make simulacrums with >1/2 normal HD; while Inspire Greatness optimization gets me a good ways, and either of the above creatures could get me where I need, I'd like to know if there are any other options out there.

Thanks, everyone!

How interesting...

I wonder, then: how would Shadow Blend interact with Darkvision, or other effects which allow the beneficiary to negate the effects of darkness. RAW, it seems to me that the Shadow Creature would have full concealment, even against a creature that was otherwise unencumbered by the darkness...

Just for completeness's sake, I believe there is one more PrC that has not yet been mentioned.

The Cerebrex from Dragon Compendium is a half casting class that, at level 6, gets an ability called Eidetic Memory (not to be confused with the Jordain Vizier ability of the same name). It explicitly gives perfect sensory recall of events in all of your senses, and comes with a bonus to various intelligence related checks.

It's really a mediocre class, but the ability is precisely what you are describing. Plus, you still pick up a few spellcasting levels on the way.

I haven't read all the way through this thread, but I just wanted to take a moment to thank you, X-Codes, for compiling all of this.

Bravo, sir!  

No, but I do live in a giant bucket. I figure everything will work out fine.