Author Topic: Magic vs Mundane: Third Wheel Solution?  (Read 42345 times)

Offline X-Codes

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Re: Magic vs Mundane: Third Wheel Solution?
« Reply #40 on: December 27, 2011, 10:43:58 PM »
...monk...monk...monk...
(something)
WHYYYYYYY!?  :shakefist :banghead

Giacomo, the monk would need heavy modifications to be a useful anti-caster.  Shadow Blend + Improved Evasion is nifty, but do nothing to take out the caster.  1/day Dimension Door, even with an attack at the end, is not going to do enough damage to take out the caster.  The monk needs more.

Offline SolEiji

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Re: Magic vs Mundane: Third Wheel Solution?
« Reply #41 on: December 27, 2011, 11:04:31 PM »
...monk...monk...monk...
(something)
WHYYYYYYY!?  :shakefist :banghead

Giacomo, the monk would need heavy modifications to be a useful anti-caster.  Shadow Blend + Improved Evasion is nifty, but do nothing to take out the caster.  1/day Dimension Door, even with an attack at the end, is not going to do enough damage to take out the caster.  The monk needs more.

Hear hear.  It's sad, since the flavor is right but the mechanics aren't.  Well, that is why we're talking ACF's.

I'm rather fond of the idea of pressure point attacks to kill spellcasting ability or introduce various levels of spell failure.  Well, I'm fond of making stunning fist something useful in general.  You can become immune to stunning but I don't see you becoming immune to magic-shut-you-down.  I also recommend a means of destroying magical effects.  Punch through a wall of force, then sunder his contingent spell off with your foot in his neck.  Stuff like that.

How do you think a anti-caster monk should go about being anti-casterly?
Mudada.

Offline linklord231

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Re: Magic vs Mundane: Third Wheel Solution?
« Reply #42 on: December 28, 2011, 02:12:26 AM »

I'm rather fond of the idea of pressure point attacks to kill spellcasting ability or introduce various levels of spell failure.  Well, I'm fond of making stunning fist something useful in general.  You can become immune to stunning but I don't see you becoming immune to magic-shut-you-down.  I also recommend a means of destroying magical effects.  Punch through a wall of force, then sunder his contingent spell off with your foot in his neck.  Stuff like that.

How do you think a anti-caster monk should go about being anti-casterly?

I like those ideas.  What if you had something like a cumulative +5% ASF per successful hit by the monk, but it affected Divine casters too? Or an uncapped Dispel Magic on hit, with CL = Monk Level?  Or swap out stunning fist for that AntiMagic Ray spell, but limited to people you can punch? 
I'm not arguing, I'm explaining why I'm right.

Offline SolEiji

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Re: Magic vs Mundane: Third Wheel Solution?
« Reply #43 on: December 28, 2011, 02:56:39 AM »

I'm rather fond of the idea of pressure point attacks to kill spellcasting ability or introduce various levels of spell failure.  Well, I'm fond of making stunning fist something useful in general.  You can become immune to stunning but I don't see you becoming immune to magic-shut-you-down.  I also recommend a means of destroying magical effects.  Punch through a wall of force, then sunder his contingent spell off with your foot in his neck.  Stuff like that.

How do you think a anti-caster monk should go about being anti-casterly?

I like those ideas.  What if you had something like a cumulative +5% ASF per successful hit by the monk, but it affected Divine casters too? Or an uncapped Dispel Magic on hit, with CL = Monk Level?  Or swap out stunning fist for that AntiMagic Ray spell, but limited to people you can punch?

Sounds tasty.  I'm gonna open the floodgates and do some brain rambling now, just random bits and bobs to be stolen and used by whomever sees fits.  This should be interesting because I believe I've just passed the 24 hour mark for being awake... Brain tsunami gooooo!

----

Sync Punch: Punch through magical effects and whatnot.  You ignore magical AC bonuses and enhancement bonuses on armor.

Discharging Punch: Punch someone so hard you punch one of their prepared spells out.  Deal extra damage equal to 1d6 of the level of the spell.
Wizard: Hey look, I prepared Horrid Wilting!
Monk: Hiyah!
*Wizard takes damage plus 8d6 and loses an 8th level slot.*


Dimension Pull: Instead of a crappy teleport 1/day, whenever someone teleports or planeshifts around you, you can follow them as an immediate action.  Abrupt Jaunt Conjurers have begun to cry!

Spellcasting Harassment: The Concentration check needed to cast defensively around you is now equal to 15+Spell level+your effective monk level.

Improved Still Mind: If you save vs a mind control spell you can make the target believe you failed, making it possible to decieve them.

Spelldeath Attack: Study 3 rounds and strike!  Save vs all your spells being expended (with or without a massive explosion).  Or maybe save vs Antimagic Ray.  I dunno.

Without a True Name: You cannot be divined upon, and power words no longer work on you.  Cause you're closer to nirvana and stuff.

Better SR: Let you toggle it up and down as a non-action.  Really all SR should be like this.

Gradiant Disrupting Fist: Ok, so its that spell failure idea from above, but it goes like this.  If they fail the save, say, 20% fail chance.  If they fail the save by 4 or more, 50%.  By 8 more more, Antimagic Ray effect.  Etc.  The gradiant is nice and non binary.

Deflect Spells: Deflect arrows, with spells!  Works with all subsequent feats like the ability to throw said projectiles back.

Improved Deflect Spells: Deflect targeted effects too, not just attack rolls!

True Seeing: Actually this one seems kinda monk like, being enlightened and all.  You'd think they'd get this.

Dampen CL: The CL of enemy spell effects hitting you is reduced X amount.  This might negate the spell if the CL drops to 0.  Scales with level from -1 to -5 or something.

Reflective SR: Spells which don't penetrate SR are turned.

Absorbing SR: Spells which don't penetrate SR heal the monk 1d6 per spell level.

Better Wholeness of Body: Make it a swift action.  Maybe also make it bigger.  Another option: have it so you can burn X points out of it to cure yourself of status effects.  It's a mini Iron Heart Surrrrrrrge!

Detect Magic: Cause sensing the unseen should be part of the monk's stuff.

Definately a Strength of the Monk: A monk can gain and used partially charged wands to.... nah, I'm messing with you guys, this is a joke entry.

Beat up CL: Punches destroy the CL of currently running spells, likely shortening their duration by a lot.  Dispelled if it hits CL 0.

Suppressing Punch: Suppresses a magic effect for 1d4 rounds after you hit.

Broken Chakra: Punch disrupts your body's natural workings.  You take backlash damage whenever you cast a spell, until the effect is healed.  (Via full health?  Heal spell?  Remove curse?)

Sunder Magic: You can punch the enhancements off a sword.  They come back later, when it's too late.  You can also punch off spell effects, like contingencies and mage armors.  Sunder sunder sundercats hooooo!

Unstoppable Fist meets Unmoveable Spell: Break force effects.  Hit ghosts, cause magic fists should have done that in the first place.

I'm Out of Ideas: Yep.  I think I'm done.

Ahhh.... 3 hours and 30 minutes until I can sleep.  Tis a long night.
Mudada.

Offline Sir Giacomo

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Re: Magic vs Mundane: Third Wheel Solution?
« Reply #44 on: December 28, 2011, 07:51:49 AM »
...monk...monk...monk...
(something)
WHYYYYYYY!?  :shakefist :banghead

Giacomo, the monk would need heavy modifications to be a useful anti-caster.  Shadow Blend + Improved Evasion is nifty, but do nothing to take out the caster.  1/day Dimension Door, even with an attack at the end, is not going to do enough damage to take out the caster.  The monk needs more.

More? Really?
Consider this:
Sun school feat, plus rapid stun feat and snap kick feat (you may also get intuitive attack feat to really focus on WIS for the monk, plus ability focus and ki straps to make stunning really hurt).
This means that at 12th level, the monk can do a dimension door, attack TWICE with TWO stuns vs the wizard's weak fort save. The wizard better has some good contingency (still) up to get out of this one. ;)

Of course, by level 12, a wizard can also have more defenses, to which a monk at that level can again have countertactics and so on and so on...
But it is by no means a clear result in favour of the wizard, I daresay.

- Giacomo

Offline zugschef

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Re: Magic vs Mundane: Third Wheel Solution?
« Reply #45 on: December 28, 2011, 07:56:44 AM »
I'm Out of Ideas: Yep.  I think I'm done.
i want to play this monk. that was exactly what i wanted from my monk when i started playing dnd, but had no clue of mechanics and stuff.

Offline Tiltowait

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Re: Magic vs Mundane: Third Wheel Solution?
« Reply #46 on: December 28, 2011, 08:02:42 AM »
I have every character I have ever made kept in a binder. Since I mostly play optimized blasters many of those are Wizards and similar.

Every single one of them have a Fort save in excess of their level. Some have a Fort save that is at least double their level. All of the high level ones are completely immune to stunning as an incidental benefit of one of their many routine buffs.

I am curious as to where these weak Fort save Wizards are. I am even more curious to know what self respecting Wizard would have any trouble with a Monk. Sometimes we make a joke campaign where we beat up entire monasteries full of the things. They tend to end prematurely, as you have to drink every time you kill one.

Offline sirpercival

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Re: Magic vs Mundane: Third Wheel Solution?
« Reply #47 on: December 28, 2011, 08:22:23 AM »
The fun idea I had was to use Don Quixote's Dementist to mix a 12-headed hydra with a Living Spell of Mage's Disjunction.  However, I doubt that a dementist that could do that would be very bothered by mundanes...
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Offline Vasja

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Re: Magic vs Mundane: Third Wheel Solution?
« Reply #48 on: December 28, 2011, 09:03:28 AM »
Anyone else feel like Dimension Door is brought up in every bloody 'x vs. magic' discussion?

Seriously, it's not that great. Amazing way to run if you're in close quarters, but the whole
Quote
After using this spell, you can’t take any other actions until your next turn.
means it's not an offensive spell. Not to mention that anticipate teleportation shuts it down completely - no save, no SR, you show up a round late. And you can't do anything until your next turn. You don't even need contingency.

Nice when you have a whole bunch of people to teleport in with, so that someone actually gets to act.

Edit: Just read that Sun School feat. That's pretty nice. Still not great - gets shut down by Abrupt Jaunt, Greater Mirror Image, and ruined completely by Anticipate Teleportation, but it's solid at least. Then again, it's a feat I'd almost never take - buffing a 1/day ability (that's extremely situational) isn't a good use of a feat for a monk.
« Last Edit: December 28, 2011, 10:14:10 AM by Vasja »

Offline SorO_Lost

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Re: Magic vs Mundane: Third Wheel Solution?
« Reply #49 on: December 28, 2011, 11:57:29 AM »
Anyone else feel like Dimension Door is brought up in every bloody 'x vs. magic' discussion?
Nope, it comes up only as often as gia posts and that only happens when he sees the word Monk.

Personally I'd use Lord of Darkness's Ritual of Shadow Walking, take 2 con damage and 1d4 HP to teleport 100ft as a standard action for 500gp & 2,000xp (minor costs). A single level dip into Binder can cover the con damage and Battle Jump / Mantis Leap let's you charge using a Move Action. Net worth is two charges (go for pounce) and teleportation.

Offline X-Codes

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Re: Magic vs Mundane: Third Wheel Solution?
« Reply #50 on: December 28, 2011, 03:36:42 PM »
Edit: Just read that Sun School feat. That's pretty nice. Still not great - gets shut down by Abrupt Jaunt, Greater Mirror Image, and ruined completely by Anticipate Teleportation, but it's solid at least. Then again, it's a feat I'd almost never take - buffing a 1/day ability (that's extremely situational) isn't a good use of a feat for a monk.
Giacomo fails to understand that Sun School isn't for monks, it's for Initiators that dip Monk for feats since then they can get free attacks on using those Shadow-Hand teleport maneuvers.  It makes for a good way to close distance, and if it's a move action then you can still make a strike.  If it's a swift action, you can make a full attack.

Offline Sir Giacomo

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Re: Magic vs Mundane: Third Wheel Solution?
« Reply #51 on: December 29, 2011, 06:45:13 AM »
Edit: Just read that Sun School feat. That's pretty nice. Still not great - gets shut down by Abrupt Jaunt, Greater Mirror Image, and ruined completely by Anticipate Teleportation, but it's solid at least. Then again, it's a feat I'd almost never take - buffing a 1/day ability (that's extremely situational) isn't a good use of a feat for a monk.

It is not only the dimension door ability of the monk that you can use. Any teleporting ability that the monk might acquire (item or otherwise) can be used in combination with it.
But yes, anticipate teleportation (if up) can be a good method against it. Then, other methods can be found. And so on. And so on. (as I already mentioned).

Anyone else feel like Dimension Door is brought up in every bloody 'x vs. magic' discussion?
Nope, it comes up only as often as gia posts and that only happens when he sees the word Monk.

Really, SorO? Only me bringing up the idea to use dimension door against a wizard? Interesting.
 ;)

- Giacomo

PS @X-Codes: Sun school feat does not have anything to do with ToB and the setting sun school. I also often confuse that.

Offline Vasja

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Re: Magic vs Mundane: Third Wheel Solution?
« Reply #52 on: December 29, 2011, 08:27:39 AM »
But yes, anticipate teleportation (if up) can be a good method against it. Then, other methods can be found. And so on. And so on. (as I already mentioned).

Anticipate Teleportation, at 12th, should be up for any Wizard that has Abjuration (which is most of them). It's a fourth-level spell that lasts 24 hours - at that level, extending it isn't a problem. Spending a 4th or 5th level spell slot to handle most direct attempts at scry-and-die is a very effective use of resources and incidentally shutting down a three feats and one or two monk class features is just icing.

The 'and so on and so on' is where I disagree. The wizard has many more options than a monk. This is inherent in having so many damn spells. Many spells that are effective against casters (Anticipate Teleportation, Greater Mirror Image) are even more effective against mundanes, whereas mundanes have little in the way of multi-threats. Hence, they fall behind, and the gap exists.

PS @X-Codes: Sun school feat does not have anything to do with ToB and the setting sun school. I also often confuse that.

He's talking about using it in conjunction with the Shadow Hand school, not Setting Sun, to gain multiple teleports instead of just using abundant step (Which are, incidentally, better. Even the weakest, shadow jaunt, doesn't end your turn.).

Offline SorO_Lost

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Re: Magic vs Mundane: Third Wheel Solution?
« Reply #53 on: December 29, 2011, 12:45:53 PM »
But yes, anticipate teleportation (if up) can be a good method against it. Then, other methods can be found. And so on. And so on. (as I already mentioned).
What you already mentioned was:
Of course, by level 12, a wizard can also have more defenses, to which a monk at that level can again have countertactics and so on and so on...
But it is by no means a clear result in favour of the wizard, I daresay.
Which is like saying "with this, I will always win even if my monk's current and next forty thousand tactics suck! I AM RIGHT ON THE INTERNET!"

It's not impressive. At. All.

***

Back to that ritual for the moment (FR:Lords of Darkness), I didn't see any must be alive text, so you can go Necropoliton to ignore the Con damage, measly 1d4 HP loss to teleport around. Not has good as Shadow Hand, but certainly impressive for nonToBers. Anyone got text saying no on that?


Offline Sir Giacomo

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Re: Magic vs Mundane: Third Wheel Solution?
« Reply #54 on: December 30, 2011, 05:06:54 AM »
But yes, anticipate teleportation (if up) can be a good method against it. Then, other methods can be found. And so on. And so on. (as I already mentioned).
What you already mentioned was:
Of course, by level 12, a wizard can also have more defenses, to which a monk at that level can again have countertactics and so on and so on...
But it is by no means a clear result in favour of the wizard, I daresay.
Which is like saying "with this, I will always win even if my monk's current and next forty thousand tactics suck! I AM RIGHT ON THE INTERNET!"

It's not impressive. At. All.


Yes, of course. Because a wizard at level 12 is absolutely unbeatable.  :lmao
Sure.

Let's enter the first "and so on" loop.

Monk in world with anticipate teleportation does not abundant step, but simply moves towards wizard and double stuns. What is the mighty wizard going to do about this? ;)

EDIT: Nevermind. It's best I stop posting in this thread.

- Giacomo
« Last Edit: December 30, 2011, 05:24:39 AM by Sir Giacomo »

Offline SolEiji

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Re: Magic vs Mundane: Third Wheel Solution?
« Reply #55 on: December 30, 2011, 05:13:06 AM »
Contingent Summon Eiji goes off.

Eiji promptly explodes.  Take all the dice and roll them.  That is the damage.  :p
Mudada.

Offline zugschef

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Re: Magic vs Mundane: Third Wheel Solution?
« Reply #56 on: December 30, 2011, 06:02:09 AM »
Monk in world with anticipate teleportation does not abundant step, but simply moves towards wizard and double stuns. What is the mighty wizard going to do about this? ;)
how about casting celerity?

Offline darqueseid

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Re: Magic vs Mundane: Third Wheel Solution?
« Reply #57 on: December 30, 2011, 08:29:47 AM »
#1 the wizard can't be flying all the time, what makes an AMF specced rogue good is he can get the drop on said wizard anytime they land and then they can't get away. (and as somone pointed out, you can just be a flying race) they have to land to buy food, to buy items, etc.
1) http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/overlandFlight.htm
2) http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/fabricate.htm
3) http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/wondrousItems.htm#iounStones

Flies all the time, makes whatever he needs, and doesn't have to eat.  When he sleeps, he can do so in some extradimensional space the Rogue can't access.  There are a few spells that do that in the SRD.

#2 EVERY build has the clones problem, even other casters.. unless the AMF stops it, so I don't think it has bearing on wether one build is good over another
Actually, other casters have Divination spells.  Mage's Private Sanctum will foil some, but not others.  Meanwhile, the Rogue has jack.

#3 Massive damage + attack bonus?  Without magic a 20th lvl rogue build can get 5 attacks in on the wizard with +9d6 or +10d6 sneak attack damage applied to all of those.  Assuming they win initiative, which they should, more than the wiz because dex is the melee rogues stat.   So thats around 160 damage on average before the wizard even gets to act.  with a base attack bonus of +16(suprise round)/+16/+11/+6/+1 (adding dex with weapon finesse) 4 of those are more than enough to hit a wizard with no magical protections-and more than enough to kill a 20th wizard with an average around 120hps.  if they lose initiative they lose the sneak attacks, thats where a tripping capable rogue would be needed
I could rattle off a few spells that give immunity to all that added damage, but it's a lot easier to just spend 36k gold to immunize yourself, anyway.  Also, your attack bonus here is *not* massive.  You have, best as I can figure, a +27 to hit with your best attacks, and Wizards can wind up with an AC in the 40's at higher levels, mostly on accident.

So no, Rogues are absolute trash.  They're an Expert with a slightly different chassis and a scant few meaningful class features (Evasion, mostly, Sneak Attack is just not good).

I really can't tell if your trolling or just forgot what the AMF stands for...
-please explain to me how a wizard gets a 40 ac without magic defenses?   And also how do they become immune to critical hits in an AMF?  Maybe you just dont understand what an AMF does

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/antimagicField.htm

the op is about equalizing the playing field between a caster and other classes.  In a world where all the high level wizards fly around all the time but never go do anything, your right, the rogue is not able to take said caster out, as far as combat avoidance goes both classes have means to stay away from each other. But if the caster wants to get an item, quest, buy things, sell things, he's got to interact with people.  That puts him on the ground at least some of the time. And that makes him vulnerable to the rogue with an anti magic field

Ps the rogue who has a high enough umd skill to cast AMF from a scroll can probably cast a divination from a scroll too.  Meaning he's got at least the same tool to deal with clones as any other class.   

The reason the rogue wins here is because he can dish out the damage required when all magic is turned off.  And that's the only way your gonna beat a wizard, or any caster for that matter.

Offline Vasja

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Re: Magic vs Mundane: Third Wheel Solution?
« Reply #58 on: December 30, 2011, 08:56:08 AM »
how about casting celerity?

Seriously, this. If you're talking about anything that's not a surprise round, you have to beat celerity. Which, if you're running around in an AMF, isn't very likely. If you're in the surprise round, you aren't going to be getting five attacks. You won't be killing the wizard with one sneak attack, which leads to withdraw -> celerity.

Offline zugschef

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Re: Magic vs Mundane: Third Wheel Solution?
« Reply #59 on: December 30, 2011, 09:05:16 AM »
normally you don't beat wizards in initiative... nerveskitter and less magic item dependency make it easier for a wizard to further optimize it with gear. so normally no surprise round backstabbing either...

@AMF: the best spells don't give a fukken damn about it anyway, which is why magic immunity and spell resistance fail, too.
« Last Edit: December 30, 2011, 09:07:45 AM by zugschef »