Across the Table (OOC Discussion)

[bhu]

You guys seem pretty proficient in 4e.  Has anyone made a class template for it?

[Nanshork]

As long as you're ok with the change! For the record, Warlords are capable of handing out ranged basic attacks as well.

Pretty much the entire group has crappy basic attacks.   

I'm fine with the change.

[Bartholomew]

The "thrown together two nights ago" will fit fine with my character.

[Melblen_Cairn]

Those who are done and have not already done so, please post your character sheet to the character sheet thread labeled The Heroes.

[VennDygrem]

I should have my character settled upon soon. Just fussing now, mostly. 

[Inspectre]

I think the last thing that I need for Galadren is a mechanical background thing - does anyone have one that they could suggest for him?  I don't have the Forgotten Realms Guide so I don't know what backgrounds are available or their effects.

[VennDygrem]

Based on a general placing of the campaign and what I can glean from your character, Gray Vale may be the most appropriate background. The benefit grants you a bonus language known, Nature as a class skill (though you already have it as one), and a +2 bonus on Nature checks. Though you're already trained in Nature, the +2 bonus is nice, and the extra language known may well be very useful. Otherwise, you can essentially create your own background and fit the generic benefits to it, which allow you to either gain a bonus language, an extra class skill, +1 to two different skills or +2 to one skill. There are also several backgrounds that have been published in Dragon magazine, though the majority of them just suggest skills or languages to fit the fluff of the background. There's on, "Pivotal Event: You Die" which fits your character's history, and is associated with Endurance and Heal (so you could select either of those for the benefit).

I actually built part of my last character's history around the background I selected for him, which I suppose is as intended, since I wanted to give him a bit more of a bonus in Insight. So, sometimes it's useful for filling out the fluff for a character, while other times it's good for shoring up a weakness. Gaining a +2 bonus to Perception never hurt anyone.

I actually found a write-up of the backgrounds, so you can take a look and see if any of the mechanical benefits catch your eye and perhaps find a way to fit it with your history.

[Inspectre]

I suspect that "Pivotal Event: You Die" would be the most fitting.  I didn't see the write-up for that one on that list though.  I assume it's just +1 on Endurance & Heal, and both are considered class skills?  Mechanically speaking the "Windrise Ports" background looks really interesting (love multi-class feats), but I don't know what's required for that background and I don't think it would really fit into Galadren's background without some work. 

Furthermore, what is the party lacking right now?  I was thinking it was going to be controllers, but between a psion, a warlock, and a swordmage we're probably okay on that front.  Having been in a party of nothing but controllers & classes that dabbled in control (wizard, swordmage, warlock) before, I found the experience a bit of a grind since it took forever to kill anything.  Which is sort of pushing me back towards the full-on Ranger at this point. 

Which is actually why I'm curious about the "Windrise Ports" background, as I could use that to multi-class in both Rogue and Seeker then.

[Melblen_Cairn]

So far we have for completed characters;

Elf Cleric (Leader)
Human Warlock (Striker)
Halfling Sorcerer (Striker)
Genasi Swordmage (Defender)

Some of these may have elements of a controller, the party lacks a firm one. Play what you will find the most fun in. The original party got by fairly well without a true controller before, but that could have been because they had three defenders as well.

[VennDygrem]

Unfortunately, Windrise ports was errata'd. No more extra multiclassing unless you're a Bard.

As for the roles, the character builds I'm flip-flopping on are both defender-striker, so I should be able to put out pretty decent damage and stay relatively sticky; the point is I'll be able to supplement the Swordsage and the Strikers alternately without stepping on anyone's toes.

Before with 2-3 total defenders, Dunor rarely had a chance to shine in his primary role, so usually he just fell back on a secondary role. I'm hoping to avoid that with a somewhat more versatile character. I'll have the sheets up later today, so maybe I can get some insight from everyone else.

[VennDygrem]

So, here are the two I've been considering most so far: The Fighter|Barbarian build and the Fighter|Rogue build.

The Fighter|Barbarian seems like it will put out more damage more easily, without as much set-up.

The Fighter|Rogue has more skills trained, and has slightly better defenses (though that's mostly due to the defensive property of its weapon). It can do respectable damage, but the main draw is that even its rogue powers support the character's role as a Defender. At least, they will, particularly next level when I can take the Vigilante Justice Style feat, modifying Riposte Strike. His daily basically turns all of his attacks into Riposte Strike for the encounter, and will allow me to function better as both striker and defender for at least one encounter per day. I could technically retrain the double sword proficiency to get the Monk multiclass feat and be on even-footing with the other build, weapon-wise, and I like the fluff of Dunor just brawling and using his fists as his weapons, though the double sword helps boost my defenses and thus helps my role as partial Defender.

Both characters should be fun to play, and both involve spreading out the marks and damage among several enemies, which is something that was common to Dunor before so it seems like a good fit. Though I could make the Rogue build work as a brawler like the Barbarian one, I kind of like the double sword too and it helps in its own way. The thing that stings the most for hybrids is the limits of applying class features to only one class's powers (like the Fighter's Combat Challenge and the Rogue's Sneak Attack), leaving out even melee basic attacks. Could a feat, or set of feats, be devised to alter this, at least over a course of time? Paying a feat tax to be able to cross over more, and possibly make them take up the Multiclass feat limit, seems appropriately fair. *shrug*

To be honest, I've spent more time over the last week looking over the Fighter|Rogue build, so I'm kind of leaning toward that.

Anyone see something there that I don't? Anything the group needs?

[Inspectre]

Having tried a fighter/rogue before, while your build does look a bit more solid than mine, I was *very* unimpressed by mine.  Needing to switch back and forth between fighter marks and rogue attacks meant that he was incompetent at both, and I was glad when he died after a couple of encounters of flailing about.  On the other hand, I seem to recall that he was the party's only defender, so perhaps with us already having a swordmage in the party you won't need to try and tank everything.  My character should be ready to go by the weekend - I'm going to take one last look at making a straight Seeker since we don't have a dedicated Controller.  If I don't like what I see, then I guess we'll just have to squeak by with a Ranger/Seeker hybrid. 

[Melblen_Cairn]

@ Venn - Wow, both look like they would be really fun to play. I can just see Dunor running about as a F/B build pummeling things with his fists in a fit of rage (not sure why but it was a drunken rage in my head). I see your dilemma though; the F/R is equally intriguing, and since the party has another defender it may be easier to swap roles quickly during a fight. The way it is built makes me think you still want them attacking you since many of he powers have secondary attacks that still rely on them attacking you, but you get to punish them if they don't from the rogue side.

I think both would be equally fun to play.

@ Inspectre - We are starting a little later than I had wanted but please take your time to make sure you play what you want to play. Seekers are pretty cool, but I liked your ranger seeker build too. In it were you going to stick with the crossbow through your career or were you looking for a long bow later?


Until both of you have chosen I can't fully seed the dungeon with items yet, I have some broad lists built to choose from but until I know one way or another I can't go much further without backtracking if I went the wrong direction.

[VennDygrem]

@Inspectre: Well, this build is focused on opening up by marking one or more enemies, then finding ways to punish them when they attack either me or an ally. It doesn't work quite as well until next level when I can take the Vigilante Justice Style feat and turn Riposte Strike into a defender-like power, but the benefit I do have is being able to switch between roles if I need to. If the Swordmage has things under control, I can forget about having to mark enemies and just worry about getting sneak attack off. However, you do bring up valid points.

This build is a lot more tactically-focused than the other, and would require a lot more planning and focus, which could be fun or it could be tedious. However, it gains steam over the course of its lifespan since it can add a lot of powers that take less than a Standard to activate, allowing it a lot more options to deal damage even when focusing on defending. Just at third level is a nice minor action encounter power, even.

I like having the range of skills, and having decent defenses doesn't hurt either.

On the other hand, the Fighter|Barbarian can do its damage without having to set up sneak attacks and doesn't really need any other feats to do its job. It still has the same deal with switching between defending and dealing damage, though I'm thinking of switching Slash and Pummel out for Grappling Strike, which would allow me to focus that much more on keeping an enemy from going anywhere, though it would somewhat reduce the damage I do. I'm also considering switching it for Pressing Strike, and swapping the Daily out for Thunder Hooves Rage, which would increase my damage by a good degree one encounter per day. Might not be worth it, in the end, especially if it ends up causing me to get attacked too much.

The downside to the Fighter|Barbarian build is that a lot of the best Barbarian powers require you to be wielding a two-handed weapon. Since I'd be focusing on the Whirling Slayer build, I can mostly get around that, and luckily I can select a Fighter at-will because there really aren't many barbarian at-wills that don't require two-handers. Another concern is whether my damage output will remain consistent. The big upside here would be if there were some way to mark enemies when attacking with Barbarian powers, say through a feat. I really wish they had supplemented Hybrids with a chain of "multiclass" feats that took up your one multiclass, but allowed you to mix the two classes better. Paragon Hybrid doesn't really cut it, and is considerably weaker than a straight paragon path.

[Inspectre]

Decided to go with the hybrid as I didn't like what was available to a pure Seeker.

Galadren will be using a crossbow for the duration as the Superior Crossbow he will pick up next time he has a free feat is an extra +1 to-hit over it's superior weapon competitor the Greatbow (and he needs as much to-hit as he can get).  Also, unless there's a feat that nullified this somewhere, crossbow is the only ranged option for rogue sneak attack - and Galadren will be engineering ways for himself to get Combat Advantage against an opponent once every fight.

As far as a wish list for magic items goes, Galadren is pretty flexible for most stuff.

(In order of preference, but any would be fine)
Weapons:
Swiftshot Superior Crossbow (Level 3, AV1)
Quick Superior Crossbow (Level 3, AV1)
Point Blank Superior Crossbow (Level 3, AV1)
Rebounding Superior Crossbow (Level 2, AV2)
Targeting Superior Crossbow (Level 3, AV2)
Entrapping Superior Crossbow (Level 2, AV2)
Prime Shot Superior Crossbow (Level 3, AV1)
Poisoned Superior Crossbow (Level 5, AV1)
Supremely Vicious Superior Crossbow (Level 3, AV2)
Wounding Superior Crossbow (Level 4, AV1)
Scalebane Superior Crossbow (Level 3, AV1 - Galadren really HATES dragons)
Inspiring Superior Crossbow (Level 3, AV1)

Magical Ammunition in the form of magical crossbow bolts from AV2 would always be fun too!

Armor:
Veteran's Leather Armor (Level 2, AV1)
Armor of Sudden Recovery (Level 3, AV2)
Addergrease Leather Armor (Level 3, AV1)
Serpentskin Leather Armor (Level 3, AV1)
Breaching Leather Armor (Level 3, AV1)
Repulsion Leather Armor (Level 2, AV1)
Spiked Jacket Leather Armor (Level 3, AV2)

Arms:
Bracers of Archery (Level 6, AV1)
Bracers of Bold Maneuvering (Level 8, AV1)
Skull Bracers (Level 7, AV1)
Executioner's Bracers (Level 3, AV2)

Feet:
Boots of Rapid Motion (Level 5, AV2)
Boots of Stealth (Level 3, AV1)
Wildrunners (Level 4, AV1)
Feyleaf Sandals (Level 2, AV1)

Hands:
Feinting Gloves (Level 7, AV2)
Caustic Gauntlets (Level 6, AV1)
Climbing Claws (Level 4, AV1)
Gauntlets of Blood (Level 4, AV2)

Neck:
Cape of the Mountebank (Level 5, AV1)
Lucky Charm (Level 4, AV2)
Necklace of Keys (Level 3, AV2)

Waist:
Baldric of Time (Level 6, AV2)
Belt of Nourishment (Level 7, AV2)

Wondrous Items:
Endless Quiver (Level 9, AV2)
Map of Unseen Lands (Level 7, AV2)
Power Jewel (Level 5, AV1)
Bridle of Conjuration (Level 4, AV1)
Vagabond's Dice (Level 8, AV2)
Deepfarer's Pouch (Level 5, AV2)
Hunter's Flint (Level 2, AV1)
Amulet of Elegy (Level 2, AV2)

Head:
Eagle Eye Goggles (Level 2, AV1)
Stag Helm (Level 5, AV1)
Crown of Doors (Level 6, AV1)
Crown of Leaves (Level 7, AV1)
Circlet of Second Chances (Level 3, AV1)
Casque of Tactics (Level 4, AV1)

[Melblen_Cairn]

Nice Inspectre. You certainly have given me a lot to work with there.

[Melblen_Cairn]

Working on seeding the dungeon with items and treasure again. Will just keep a separate list for each possible option for either version of Dunor. Will we be ready to kick things off on Monday evening?

[Inspectre]

Works for me!

[Nanshork]

I've never made a leader before so come up with appropriate things for me? 

[VennDygrem]

There are a few items that will be useful for both versions of Dunor. I'm sorry I'm being so difficult with this, but both versions are pretty similar in a lot of aspects, but feature fairly different playstyles.